by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 11 November 2007 - 23:11
I thought it was high time we get back to discussing dogs, training and the more positive learning tools this site was set up for. This should be a drama free thread and I'd like to hear from the crew that has gone underground in hopes they will resurface and share some informative insight to what the benefits are in doing muzzle work? When is it appropriate to use this method of training, what purpose does it serve and your thoughts on it.
by yellowrose of Texas on 11 November 2007 - 23:11
fIRST OF ALL , I REALLY HAVE TO BE CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU ARE ASKING ABOUT THIS......i DONT REMEMBER IF YOU TRAIN IN SCHUTZHUND OR NOT......IN SCHUTZHUND THERE IS NOT MUZZLE WORK....
MUZZLE WORK IS TO PROVE THE DOG CAN , WITHOUT THE STIMILUS OF THE SLEEVE,, OR SOMETIMES , WHAT IS CALLED A HIDDEN SLEEVE....... GO AFTER THE SUBJECT OR THE PERSON OR PERSONS, OR WHAT EVER YOU ARE USING THE MUZZLE TO ACHIEVE THAT ACTION. ,,,,, SO THAT THE PERSON OR PERSONS IN THE PURSUIT ARE NOT HURT DURING TRAINING......
IF YOU HAVE A SCHUTZHUND CANDIDATE OR TRAINED DOG....IF YOU PUT A MUZZLE ON IT TO SEE IT IT WILL GO AFTER THE SUBJECT ,,IT WOULDBE JUST TO TRY THE ANIMALS DRIVE ACTION....NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPORT....
Dogs being trained in police work are using the muzzle for those cynerios of keeping the person on the other end of the chase from getting bitten,,while the dog is trained to react to a hit on a body by the accoster....or the cynerio of a police stop, and without any anger or yelling ...the police officer gets whopped in the kisser or the neck.......to train a dog to watch and be absolute on the mark ,, you muzzle the dogs in this kind of training.....
I muzzled my Biggest son of Konig to take to the vet everytime he went ....he didnt like any vet or the techs that worked there... but thats not training....
2nd ...you dont do muzzle training or use a muzzle , in any circumstance if you dont know what your doing and are an accomplished trainer.
SCHUTZHUND IS CONDUCTED WITH SLEEVES AND DOESNT USE MUZZLES FOR ANYTHING THAT I AM AWARE OF....
NO WHERE IN THE MANUALS I READ DOES IT HAVE MUZZLES OR ON THE TRIAL FIELD IS IT USED....
by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 12 November 2007 - 01:11
yellow- I don't do schutzhund with Agar and I train with an experienced fellow that is an officer as well as very accomplished in the sport. I have a pup I'm working with in hopes to be my sport dog and I also have a titled female that is a sport dog. Although I have not found it necessary to do muzzle work with my dog I was merely trying to open up a topic of discussion that was related to training and GSD's rather than discussing who's screwing who,Tim Helser drama and the various mudslinging matches that have chased all the good folks away. I don't believe I indicated anywhere in my thread that muzzle work is used in schutzhund....however I do know many who train not only police dogs but that do PSA, French Ring do train with muzzles so I was merely asking what the benefits were. That's all my question was....and thanks for answering it with your view point.
by Xeus on 12 November 2007 - 01:11
Muzzle work is one way too proof your dog. It also teaches your dog to fight with more than his mouth, it also can build up frustration in the dog and it can improve the bite. Also a dog that is allowed to kick the crap out of someone (role playing by agitater) comes away with a lot more attitude and confidence.
by fm2410 on 12 November 2007 - 01:11
Wouldn't a muzzle also have a subdued affect on some dogs. When would you not want to use a muzzle?
by yellowrose of Texas on 12 November 2007 - 01:11
Most police officers have been in the training of the pd dog and where the muzzle is widely used.....I use to watch Kevin Henry from Hundesport do his training , on one part of his property, while his wife did the schutzhund on the other side....Many times , when finished we watched , and He used muzzle work a lot.....as he was training police dogs..and their handlers.....
by triodegirl on 12 November 2007 - 01:11
Agar, I didn't think you meant SchH. Thanks for asking the question. I was curious about muzzlework as well.
by olskoolgsds on 12 November 2007 - 02:11
Good topic and good idea to bring it back to relevant issues on dogs.
There are those on here that will certainly have more current information on this subject then I but I will just say why we used to use a muzzle on a dog.
Xeus pretty much said it. We used to muzzle strickly to build a dogs confidence and use his body more to some degree in apprehending. The agitators ( helper and decoy were not terms that I was familiar with ) job was to allow the dog to chase him off initially as I recall. In steps leading to knocking him down, and terrifying him on the ground, keeping the dog on top, always winning, always being in control with his best weapon ( mouth ) bound. It seemed to me that these dogs progressed in confidence at this phase. It was also a good way to get your sides and stomach clawed terribley until I started wearing an elastic back brace.
fm2410, You have to have a dog that is willing and wants to pursue the agitator and has the drive to do it. This is all broken down in steps according to the dogs level of drive and confidence. The agitator must work hand in hand with the handler to keep the dog focused, encouraged and motivated. I remember a strong male Rott that was terrible ( in a good sense). He was the strongest dog I have ever seen and he could use his body very well.
I think muzzle work has advanced and is used in more ways today but hopefully some with lots of knowledge will respond to this thread. I am not saying this is the best or only way to use a muzzle, it was just my experience.
by southtexan on 12 November 2007 - 02:11
Here is a good article on this.........
by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 12 November 2007 - 02:11
Xeus- thank you for the response. this was my understanding as well but I wondered what some others who have done muzzle work on their dogs or have seen it done CORRECTLY felt about the situation. I've seen many good trainers use the muzzle very effectively so I asked my trainer about it just this evening as a matter of fact but we did not get into a deep discussion since he told me he did not feel the need for it with my particular dog since his bite doesn't need improved and he gets him PO'd enough that his frustration builds without a muzzle. lol Agar is being trained for personal protection and is making a nice transition from schutzhund. There's things we probably will never do in his training such as muzzle work but I still like to ask questions to understand why some people use certain methods and what purpose they serve. So I appreciate you giving an intelligent response as it has been one of the very few I've seen in the past several days in between all the PDB drama. I'd like to get back to actually learning about the dogs.