What are the benefits to doing muzzle work? - Page 3

Gustav-  Good to hear from you.  I value your opinnion and knowledge you have to offer of your many years of experience.  Then I should not be afraid to try some muzzle work with Agar....I think I'll have to discuss this a little deeper with my trainer next week and see if he'd be willing to add this into our sessions.  Although when I mentioned to him I wanted him to teach Agar to bite the crotch of the bite suit he said that's where he has to draw the line with me. lol  Guess I was pushing my luck a bit huh?

Some of the negatives......

1) It can raise a dogs level of social dominance to a point it can cause a problem for a handler; esp a weak handler. This would depend on the dog, handler, how the muzzle work is done, and how much of it is done.

2) the dog can "center out" meaning the dog will start to target the center mass of the decoy. Not a bad thing for a PP or Police Service dog but can be bad for sport work

3) The dog can begin to "stay on the ground" during it's entry. You can lose the nice beautiful flying entry. Again, not a bad thing for PP or Police Service but judges like to see the nice flying entry from a dog that leaves the ground 5 feet in front of the decoy.

there are pro's and cons to every technuique. Problems that come from muzzle work are usually because someone does too much of it.

or clothing or arms , he doesnt need to be afraid of ,,,as he immediately wins when the agitator retreats and leaves the scene....the dog uses the muzzle to tag the intruder and he leaves the scene....the bite is considered a means to an end, not an end in itself,..   The bite is a tool use to satisy a need i.g.,  acquire food, drive off intruders, resolve conflict.

If the same goals can be accomplished without the biter, the dog will be just as satisfied..  the key then is to show the dog that this can be done, not only by wearing the muzzle, but by using it. . you are teaching the dog to take control of the situation and dominate....In fact , the bite should not be a reward for the dog, because if that were true,  the "OUT" would be like taking his food away..  As the dog learns to tag the intruder, the agitator  falls   away  from the dog , head over heels and the dog learns with his confidence each time , getting stronger and stronger,  that he has done this,,,,his intruder retreats and it makes the dog ready for a more powerful hit the next time and builds the confidence when he sees he has left the scene completely,,,but the dog should never be praised, or pulled in until the cynerio isover.....reaproach the dog, after he is still watching his for his intruder.....he will then be let approach the intruder to ward him off....many weeks of this lead to the longer line being used....

Never use hands to make the dog focus on them as targets, just slap chest and try to brace so the hit wont hurt dog with muzzle.....some agitators get on the ground , at the level with the dog ,,,to initiate the dog has the xontrol and let it dominate and win..... Learn the signals of submission and be ready to let the dog win....the agitator is tasked with   "drawing the dog out"  to the point where the muzzle makes contact with the agitator, no matter how slightly.. the agitator then has to react with his body and voice  , in an exagerated fashion, pretending to have a very tender body, and then falling away , "in excruciating pain" .  The dog is impressed with himself and gains a little bit of confidence ( with the praise of his handler) at that time....other times , you keep quiet  while he keeps full attention on the intruder that ran away....this is just a part of what gets done over and over....

ANd then the pursuit of the intruder starts , using the 6 ft lead which he drags behind him , handler at a safe distance  behind , in order to get the end of leash in hand ,,,not pulling  but holding steady while the dog tags the intruder and after the intruder rolls away from the dog and then you walk your hands up the leash to give the praise...with his eyes never leaving the intruder....   when the dog learn the out   then you can start the hit from the front as all of the first encounters are from behind.....  

after  many m ore sessions and lots of control on the leash,,,the obedience down pat and outs learned   the off leash begins with the muzzle ....for the dog has learned he controls the person while wearing the muzzle. and he is then put thru many cynerios of out and down and stay and then is ready for later...the work with out the muzzle....nowing the rules....the dog must be drilled in the rules  .....    later the bite work comes....The bitework  training is so much easier if the dog is already   solid in his control work...   the dog can still be tested for his bite work seperate from the muzzle work, but the extensive bite work is complicated by the absence of the proper release(out") component,

It is believed by many , that ,muzzle training a dog, naturally improves the dogs preformance in off -muzzle  work. 

Many hours of obedience in the out with the muzzle   teaches the control the dog will use when you start the bitework....today many are using the muzzle work , as taught by the police trainers,    to get that control in tact , before starting bite work....with the sleeve...

Now , a Schutzhund club trainer may object to this....I dont know....everyone will be different...there are as  many ways to train a dog as there are different breeds of dogs....

Having been a part of two pd dept s programs ,,I was in the middle of both kinds of training...as the trainer did both....

Gard- After reading your 1. it would probably be fair to say that the trainers hesitation to do muzzle work at this point with  the dog is not so much because he feels it may be a not so good idea for the dog but perhaps because he feels we as handlers have not graduated to that level yet and are perhaps still weak.  I should clarify and say that my husband is the one who handles Agar now; it was hard for me to except that he was a bit much for me as a beginner to start out with but I had to face facts.  One of the things he showed concern with is that he knows the dog well and his ability; he told me very early on that the dog can easily be taken to a much much higher level through his training that may not be good for me from a liability standpoint.  I have little kids, a busy house and not enough experience in handling a dog of such caliber.  So we must take "baby steps" as he puts it. lol  There's certain levels he tells me that when you take a dog to that point there is no turning back into "play", "sport" and this is not something to have fun with.  But I have watched a lot of PSA videos and I really like the style of training these dogs have so I wouldn't mind incorporating some of that into my dog.  Since Agar is not doing sport I'm not concerned with scoring points.  I have 2 other dogs to play around with and do schutzhund. Thanks again for you input.

Agar

It sounds like your trainer is waiting for you too catch up to your dog :}   The thing is this if you plan on having a true PPD you need to do muzzle.  This is why many dogs only fight people when they are standing up, I have scene dogs not bite becuase the person was lying down.  The dog needs to have the confidence to truly take on a bad guy, especially he must learn how to defeat the bad guy w/out his mouth. 

Also the question about using a muzzle on a young dog before he learns bitework.  I would not!!!!  It is hard enough to raise a pup to bite not only but it is harder to get him to bite correctly.  Take your time and build the dog slowly and properly for the best bite possible.  Muzzlework is like the final steps in training not the foundation of training. 

I am very proud of my Xeus he got a 97 in protection, pronounced in courage and fight drive.  The judge said some very nice things about him.

Xeus- yes we must "catch up" to the dog. lol  Sounds silly to those that don't understand dogs.  Agar is 4 yrs old and I had him imported with his title already from Eurosport K9.  They sent me an incredible dog.  I trust the dog wholeheartedly; he is very stable, confident and definately knows the difference between a threat and non threat; but I do have that slight apprehension in the back of my mind that if taken too far over the edge to a true PPD I'm opening up another can of worms since I must consider the fact I have young children who on one hand are being conditioned that Agar is not the "pet" and we've had to set certain ground house rules to keep our friends and welcomed visitors safe, I still have to keep in mind these are children I'm conditioning and they can and may "forget" to tell their friends to wait to be invited in after them.  Last thing I want is an innocent person to get bit and it not really be the dogs fault.  That was another reason we put up the kennels outside so when we have the kids in and out during the summer months with their friends I don't worry that the dogs gonna charge the front door every 30 seconds.  Still being new I still have reservations because I see what trained dogs- good dogs are capable of.  My trainer is a "safety first" type of guy so he's really drilled it into me to the point I make myself paranoid at times. lol But I do like to see the videos with dogs doing muzzle work and the bad guys on the ground with the dog right up in his face...pretty intense stuff.

I did no think someone would be on this late.  I have male GSD that is a PPD and she sleeps in bed with my 4 yr old, and then we have Xeus who is 4 and he is a PPD.  I also do sch with him.  I fully understand the apprehension especially with kids.  Tel me about your male i purchased two males in the past from eurosport.....email me xeusteu@sbcglobal.net

Agar, Your dog is what it is. By that I mean you are not going to transform this dog into something that you haven't seen unless the dog does not have ANY foundation and things are coming out for the first time. Your dog has had foundation training in bitework. He will not become schziphrenic(sp) because of training that is done reasonably. A civil dog is a civil dog, a sport dog is a sport dog, you can increase some components slightly, but they are what they are. Hope that makes sense!

Xeus, Good post about standing up. Little story....In 1975 i had this nice male shep that I had raised and done a lot of training with. Sch was in its infancy , (NASA), and we did a lot of sleeve work and and work with leather wraps under coat. When he was four, I imported a male puppy from Germany and didn't want to have two males as I was still young and nomadic(smile), so I decided to let this 4 year old male go. Now this dog had been in obedience voice and hand signals, sleeve and undersleeve, tracking,etc. So I advertised him and got a response from a firm in Atlanta. They supplied dogs to Howard Hughes as he was living in his island off the Bahamas. So, I took the dog to Atlanta and this English gentleman who ran Hughes dog operations was there to evaluate the dog. He took the dog through all the paces including pursuit with gunfire and the dog passed with flying colors as we had trained with gunfire all the time. When he finished he told me we will take the dog,(1000 dollars which was big money in those days-smile). Then he said young man let me show you something. He then asked me did I think I could put the dog on him. I said yes you saw him work without the sleeve. He said alright, then walked about 60 feet away from me and said I want you to send your dog. I looked at him and he said YES send your dog. He then proceeded to SIT down on the ground. I sent the dog and as he came tearing down the way the guy started going "hear boy, hear boy, hear boy,etc. Baron got all the way up to him and stopped and looked at him and looked back at me. I was amazed! He then told me I had a nice dog but you must always do work with the dog with the man on the ground and being disarming in appearance to have true PP dog. He said many dogs will not bite a non threatening object without training for it. I never forgot that and Xeus your post about a dog working a man on the ground brought it to my attention. ps Most sch dogs would not pass this test...trust me!!

Xeus- sleep insomnia. lol  Too much coffee today I guess.