What are the benefits to doing muzzle work? - Page 7

I appreciate the apology olskoolsgsd, I always feel bad when people start critiquing the helper.  I understand experienced people's urge to make a call when they see it but I'd rather a PM if anyone has any comments about the Decoy.

Luckily this guy is not a GSD person so he probably won't see it.

People don't know what they're getting into when they decoy/ help for me...I like sharing, you tube is going to start charging me for bandwith, lol.  So be nice so helper's don't start refusing let me tape.

Agar, GSDfan and anyone interrested,
Do a google search German police dogs and S.E.K. dogs.  When your choices come up go to YouTube-CQB k-9 Ivan German Shepherd.  
The first dog on hear doing muzzle work is not impressive, but if you go to the other related videos on the right go to              
 " Blek from Lev Praee. Isreal " after viewing this go to the Blek family video.
IMO this is a good dog. Obviously worked alot in muzzle but also obviously a good dog. Always dominant and serious. 
The next family video is same dog with kids and mom.  
This dog looks to me to be E.German with the head and bone, but who knows. He is though, a very nice dog.  He is not what Steve described as a S.E.K dog, but then he probably would not have been around family either.

GSDfan, good word, PM. 

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I'd add a thought: you were doing this for fun ....... but fighting isn't fun. Sleeves and pull toys are fun - Maulkorb is very serious.

I understand and partially agree, especially if you are getting into flanking, "massive amounts of physical pressure" and super high aggression.  BUT for ME, this was just on my list of things to see and do with this dog do before he gets too old (he's 7ys old now).  I will likely never see another dog (of mine) have this much bitework training behind him.  And I still think fighting to a good dog with solid nerves is fun, although maybe not to one in the "learning process" and early stages of Maulkorb . I personally wouldn't teach it (I don't have a reason to) but I don't see anything wrong with working it if it's already there.  JMO.

 Thanks though, I like reading your posts, you certainly have been around the block.

Thanks,
Melanie

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Steve,
always appreciate your posts. 20+ years ago this is where my heart was at. I was obsessed with hard dogs and taking them to the highest level in real work. I loved agitation work and often laid in bed at night thinking (instead of sleeping ) of what would bring out the most in the dog and how to spot, or force weaknesses in them, and bring it to strengths. I was forced out of dogs until just recently, too old and tired now but still enjoy immensely the topics you are talking about.  If you have a dog that is foundationally solid the limits for him are only our lack of vision.  You have brought up some of these methods here.

This kind of work requires an obsessive personality, I believe, as it is a full time experience to see most everything in life as relating to these dogs. Dogs rely on bluff. Bluffing is a big part of their arsenal.  Taking a dog from relying of bluffing to seeing themselves as having no need to bluff is an ongoing work and a real experience that requires lots of methods such as you have mentioned. ( By bluffing I am talking about the things that the dog knows are more then he wants to take on) thus the bluff. I will shut up for now, just wanted to say how interesting this topic has been and your input has brought much to it. Keep posting. Same with you Gustov and Spook.

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I have not had time to read this whole thread, so apoligize if this has been asked.  From a sport perspective, where grip (when on the bite) is almost "all important" (i.e, calm, non-mouthing, non-regripping, full-mouth) wouldn't muzzle work create a situation that is counter productive?  To expand a little, when on the grip, while the dog can be and it encouraged to "fight" the helper to some extent (assuming the grip does not suffer), but theyou go and teach it how to fight using other aspects of it's body, doesn't have the strong potential to cause grip issues?  I.e. if the dog that once focused all of its concentration on the full mouth, firm, calm grip is now fighting more, wrapping its legs around the helper, thrashing about with its legs and paws - doesn't thistake away physically and menatlly from the focus on the grip?

While I don't want to get into a discussion on the merits of sport mindset vs. K9, each is what they are and serve ddiferent purposes.  Regardless as to how short sighted the whole grip "focus" of the sport world is, there isn't a good dog with a bad grip that will excel.  So why teach it something that might detract from it channeling everything into the real matter at hand, that being the grip?

Thanks for any input.

-Calvin

Steve,  were you finished?  Didn't sound like it. You are getting into some phylisophical differences that need to be addressed if we are going to get the big picture. People today, especially the younger generation have no idea that there is a different way of doing business or why.

Calvin,  If you search for a post that Gustov wrote awhile back he addresses this issue very well. Good luck.