How many of you think Working Lines are ugly? - Page 2

Has anyone ever seen a coy-dog?    I had a big silverback white shepherd once that bred a coyote bitch.  

Coyotes with socks, one had a white tail.   The mix is always bad.   A wild animal with no fear of man.

Hard to get rid of.

2 moons you stated:

"I think the German Shepherd Dog should be bred for its original qualities, without the special interests."

i agree completly. reminds me of an old saying a friend of mine used to say. " i don't care if it's pink with purple polka dots. as long as the dog can do what it was bred for."

If you are talking about a dog just walking or standing, and not performing a function, then I would have to say that in general, the showlines are better looking.  But then agtain, I hate the roach back look and I like sable, so maybe I just changed my mind.

Truth is, I have seen some working line sables that are V rated and they look exactly like what I would want in a GSD.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we all know.  But, if you are not talking about scores or working ability, then I would have to say that a sable working line that does well in the BSZS would be ideal to me.  That would be because of the color and less roach backed.

I have been searching for the right sable showline myself.  One with not much "hump" on the back.  I don't care much about the working ability as they can all work well enough for my needs.

Sorry about getting off topic, too much java tonight.

Your right Do right, beauty is in the eye and so on.  The beauty of the German shepherd is also in the heart and soul, the loyalty, courage, intelligence.  Its physical strength and endurance.  I would quote Stephanitz if I could, but you know what I mean.

First post on this site..greetings!

Sadly, I think there are a lot of breeders that underachieve these days. It was possible to get dogs that exactly matched the written standard conformation wise, temperament wise and in working ability. These are the legendary dogs of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, truly the Golden Age of the German shepherd's dog breed.

Anderl Kleinen Pahfl, Mutz Pelztierfarm, Marko Cellerland, Bodo-Bernd and repeat litter Lierbergs, Ajax Haus Dexel, Vello Sieben Faulen, Bodo Grafental, etc. All dogs that were VA, high V and could also place in the BSP and produced lots of real working dogs from police dogs to seeing eye dogs to great family dogs. Whatever happened? Breeding is supposed to better the breed - BS! It would be better to turn the clock back and start all over again from these dogs. The Martin Brothers dictat on the showlines, and schuzthund becoming a big sport from an honest  breed test has really ruined this breed. Breeders of these dogs during the Golden Age took it upon themselves to produce GSDs that looked great, had the correct conformation and maximum working ability and family liveability at the same time!!!!  It is possible.

I have read on this site before that the term "Golden Middle" is a recent one. Wrong, actually von Stephanitz used that term decades ago. The only place where you could still see real Golden Middle dogs today is in herding. HGH GSDs should be worth their weight in gold these days if the breed were to return to the Golden age. They need to have correct structure to do their job. Correct structure is not in some judge's head or in people's eyes, it is in nature - God, nature, etc. decides what is correct structure not people. A real herding dog will break down physically if not built correctly. For example, Fenga Kirschental herded hundreds of sheep daily past the age of ten years old. That is correct structure! And that is beautiful in the same way that a rainbow, or a waterfall or a leaping leopard is beautiful!

Having said that, there is still a case to breed ugly dogs..LOL. For example, Mink and Orry Antverpa were ugly dogs  and produced ugly unless bred to pretty females. But the breed would be worse off if their working ability had not been continued.

I think most showlines dogs are ugly.  Roach back, overdone red pigment, chow faces, golden retriever temperament in most that I have met.  I would not own one of this current fad, this breed was not created just to prance around in show rings.

I still like a drop dead gorgeous showline with proper confirmation...do not like roaches, banana backs or hock walkers but, I've lately been finding I love the working lines for their consistency of type better.  I've found I find it far more appealing to have a dog that can move properly and work hard.  I love the harder type in the working lines and that brings forth a beauty of it's own.  Not to mention, I find it hard to think the working lines look ugly at all.  I absolutely love a properly built black sable.  There are some awesome looking sables out there too.  I guess the ones some find not that appealing look more "coyote-ish".  I prefer a nicely built chest, a bit of the angle, no dip or roach to the back, nice tight feet and a good head.  I think some of the working lines lack a bit of substance and that may turn some off, but you cannot beat a nicely built dark sable in my book.  And, I do have an eye for good pigment and rich colors.  I don't care for a faded grey or light tan in either lines.

And, I guess I'm one that prefers a bit of a bigger head.  No, not the "chow" type but, not the "collie" type either. 

I think a showdog that just rolled in shit is the prettiest sight I have ever seen!

Personally I think the term "working-lines" is too general and broad. Yes, there are ugly specimens of this line that do not adhere to the F.C.I. standard but the same can be said of many of the show-lines. Personally, I like the sable dogs with the rich dark colouring even though I do not own one at this time.

Regards,

Bob-O

DDRshep-

Great post. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

Personally, I like any dog that doesn't present the extreme at either end of the scale. Happily, the two sides are coming back together with  the best breeders on both sides of the fence boldly and judiciously introducing good working show dogs and well-structured working dogs into their programs once again, ala the "pre-Martin" era. Its a courageous (many still say idiotic...) decision on the part of the breeder who has worked perhaps for 40 yrs. or more to establish a consistent  "type" in his/her kennel. The wise, experienced breeders know full well it will probably take another two or even three generations before the long-term impact/results of any dramatic out-cross will be fully appreciated, incorporated genetics adjusted to consistently  produce a slightly "adjusted" type, successful or not! 

The LACK of time-tested, (read: made wise through experience) breeders in this country is a big problem IMO. Most of us have been breeding GSD's for 20 yrs. or less, (most less than ten) produce few litters each year, send the dogs into the backyards of obscurity, never to be tested because their are so few working homes, and so are never really able to evaluate the results of our efforts and use that valuable information to make educated decisions for future generations of our programs. At the low end of the scale (the vast majority of North American breeders) we have newbies, 0-5 yrs. breeding dogs with absolutely NO long-term goals, little or no idea of what they consider "the perfect dog," let alone any well-considered plan for 3-4 generations down the line, AND think they know it all... Most won't humble themselves enough to solicit advice, let alone follow any offered from people who might know more than they do, have made plenty of mistakes learning what they know, and would share their knowledge only for the asking! (I think I just proved I am still the reigning queen of the run-on sentence! :-)

Many people on this board question why we in this country still look to Germany and Europe for our breeding stock, follow the direction from foreign judges and Koermeisters, only make a breeding after consulting with trusted friends on the other side of the pond who have FAR more opportunities to see for themselves (in person!) what breeding combinations are actually producing what results, simply by virtue of the fact that there are so many dogs produced over there every year, and so many more actually getting the opportunity, trained and titled/shown/surveyed (or not!) than we can here.

IMO: THAT'S WHY!

My two cents worth... SS