How many of you think Working Lines are ugly? - Page 4

It wasn't left field.  It was center field.  It came in response to this statement:

"The public is just in the dark and one day the BSP may very well be bigger than the BSZS for a reason, right or wrong. Just because something is bigger or more popular doesn't make it better."

If the public is in the dark, then there is always the possibility that "we" are in the dark.   When someone starts saying that the public doesn't have a clue, it sets off a red light to me.  The whole world is based on what the "public" wants, desires and needs, regardless of their idiocy.  In your example about the BSP being less entralling to the "public" than the BSZS, I would suggest that the "public" knows little about either and could care less.  Only those that know the breed and the differences, actually care about either.  Making the people like you and I, the ones who have put the show lines above the working lines, at least so far.

I understand that women may find a construction worker more appealing in an animalistic sense, however, would they really take one for marriage over a doctor?  I don't think so, in the majority of the cases.  Additionally, no woman in her right mind would take a cowboy, any cowboy,  over Elvis (in his prime) or his kind, even if Elvis never worked a day in his life.

Let's get real about looks.  They matter.  Sure, work ethic and such also matter, but if you could have both, wouldn't you?  Looks are not everything of course, but they matter.  Size is not everything but it matters (I reference that, not in the way most would take it, but in relation to the recent thread about a wonderfully talented dog that is a centimeter oversized and therefore ineligible for KKL).  I say that the show lines can and do have both in just as many cases as the working lines have both, and the "public" wants both, therefore making that the goal, in my mind.  Not one, not the other, but both.

Strange how often threads turn into the work vs show argument.  Too me, it is sort of like saying a Cadillac is better than a Honda.  Depends on what you want in a vehicle.  I personally would love to have a Cady that got 38 miles to the gallon, and that should be the goal, IMO.  To each his own.

im a working line guy, but i do expect my dogs to have correct structure AND comformation.   

beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  so it only figures that ugly is also.

john

P.S.

Just in case someone may think I am just a shill for the show lines, I am not.  I believe in the work ethic of the GSD, but I am also a realist.  Looks matter in almost everything.  Cars, people, food and dogs.

I am not a believer in bite training, although I used to be very enthusiastic about it.  Changed my mind on that part.  Herding, seeing eye, bomb sniffing, drug detection, cadaver, etc, etc, are highly desired in my mind.

Additionally, I have a dog out of this guys son and am proud to own her:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/317.html

"If you think that a dog that works and performs wonderfully is the [b]omb, then it is beautiful in your eyes for that reason. "

DRAFNO - This basically is the gist of your several posts, and it is a very arbitrary point of view, which of course you are entitled to and the majority of GSD owners tend to also possess which explains the many divergent types. My point is that the standard set forth by the breed founder dictates in detail the type of structure and build the GSD should possess and that most importantly, the functionality of the breed defines it's physical structure. For one who tries to breed to Max's standard and takes the standard seriously, the standard itself presents the criterion  for "beauty" beyond what a individual may "think" a shepherd should look like and a dog that comes close to matching the standard is sublime. I say this even while admitting that I am still impressed when I see a hulking 130lb AM showline derived dog (as long as its hocks aint banging around) and had I written the standard I would have made allowances for a taller dog, but it's not my breed, it's Max's breed and he knew precisely why a GSD should not be the height of a Great Dane.

For those who breed GSD's and who believe showlines (particularly the showlines that exhibit extreme divergences from what is called for) are the beautiful ideal, how do you synthesize this belief with Max's standard? This question is not aimed at the casual owner of a companion animal, but those who are deeply involved in the development and continuance of the breed.

German Shepherd Dog breeders have Max's breed standard that express' what excellence should look like, and have the tests of the breed to express what excellence should act and behave like (still looking for how to exactly express that), when those come together, that's beautiful; that's a beautiful GSD, IMHO. Regardless of working or show lines, regardless of black & red, or sable, or any acceptable color, that's what beauty should look like, to me. Some folks think the voluptous blonde with the vacuous stare is pretty, but how many more see a girl with the spark of intelligence and the confidence of achievement as truely beautiful....same with your construction worker, Do Right, if he's got that shine of intelligence & the confidence of an achiever, that's what's truely sexy....sorry, as a nurse, a doctor would NOT be my first pick.....jh

Do Right,

Ahem... I must say you are SO off base with women...AT least this one.

I would GLADLY take the COWBOY any day over the doctor, dentist, what have you ...sorry, just ME!

I would also take that hunk of a construction worker (IF) he has something upstairs as well!  My hubby is a blue collar worker, he debarks logs for a living and let me tell you, he is one of the smartest men I know...and drop dead gorgeous to boot!  yummy...

But, just goes to show you...some CAN have it all.  I love looks AND workability AND intelligence.

Why can't we have it all?  That is MY aim with my man and my dogs.

Kalibeck and gsdfan I'm with you girls. Maybe I'm just young but I would never in a million years have picked Elvis or a Doctor. Can you say never there? I'll take the cowboy and the construction worker anyday. Oh did I say and  not or? LOL Men and dogs who have a work ethic and ruggedness about them catch my eye and keep it faster than the pretty face types. There has to be something there, to hold that attention. $ isn't everything yet. Not to everyone.

He He, I and many other working stiffs are glad there are women like ya'll.

However, given the criteria that two guys look similar and act similar, as I previously stated, MOST women would take a doctor over a cowboy.  But, the discussion is getting off key so I will drop that part.

I will say that Capt. Stephanitz, the founder of the breed (why do we feel a need to say that so often, since all of us discussing these topics are aware of that) also is the founder of the SV.  The SV is what puts certain dogs on the podium, over other dogs.  Over other types.

If we are going to refer constantly to the founder's lead, then I guess we are going to have to put the caveat in there that the organization he founded, has went astray. Of course then we will have to argue how and why, and attempt to explain why the "public" (meaning those deeply involved in the furtherence of the present day GSD) did this, and let it come to this.

I am the first to admit (to prove that, I have already stated it above), that sometimes those of us who think we know what's best, are wrong, and just don't know it.  Could be I am wrong.  Could be, you are wrong.  Could be, the SV is wrong, as well as just about everyone who owns and breeds VA dogs worldwide.  The only real criteria that we can use to ascertain who is probably right or wrong, is "majority rule", and what the public wants.

Keep an open mind and ideas will creep in.  I do.  Anytime you think that you know what's best for "the world and others", you can not help but be wrong.  Just too many different wants, desires and ideas out there.

There is room for, and fans of, working and show lines, as well as the American show line GSD.  My point is that the goal should be the best of working and show in the SAME DOG.  We should not be striving to better the working attributes, without also striving to better the structure, conformation and beauty (yes, I said it) of the GSD.  This also means that we should not be just working to better the beauty alone.

I HAVE the structurally attractive construction worker. Still reeling from disappointment after trying to have an intelligent conversation with Mr. Barely-Graduated-From-High-School last night, I'm wishing I had kept the scrawny, faithless, (wealthy) 4-eyed Stanford cardiologist just now.  At least he didn't take offence when I demonstrated college-level vocabulary., actually responded in kind, always had some verifiable citation to support his arguments and opinions.

Help! Help! I'm suffocating in a Charming Local Vernacular landfill!

SS- a snob to be sure.

SS,

'Guess there's no hope for Captain Mike then, is there?  lol