Qustions about culling? - Page 1

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by Do right and fear no one on 26 November 2007 - 12:11

I read on another thread recently that many of the problems associated with the GSD can be attributed to a lack of culling.  That it is not done anymore.  This brings to mind some questions.

Does culling mean to actually kill, or does it mean to sell as pets with limited registration?  In the context of the statements on the other recent thread, it indicated to me that it meant to kill, because it stated that culling isn't done much anymore and we all know that limited registration is done often.

I have never been to Germany, but want to attend at least one BSZS in my life.  I have heard that under the SV rules in Germany, that a litter over a certain number of pups (6?  8?) can not all be registered. Is this true?  If so, what is the number and what becomes of the excess pups?  Is this just a rumor?

If you had a pup born with two tails, both stemming from the normal spot on the rear, would you cull it?  Or would you "just have to keep it alive"?


by fm2410 on 26 November 2007 - 12:11

I think if any one were to cull puppies today they would have Peta or the SPCA breathing down their necks so fast their heads would spin. But the shelters do it all the time. Yes culling means to kill. I heard that in Germany anything over 6 pups is killed. I know it use to be a common practice, not sure if they still do it. 

When I was a kid we had a neighbor that bred Irish Setters, and one day I saw him drowning newborn puppies. He told me that the mother didn't have enough milk for all the puppies. They kept 6 puppies out of the litter. How could one decide which ones to cull at birth, aside from the obvisous birth defects.


Two Moons

by Two Moons on 26 November 2007 - 13:11

Yes culling means kill, destroy.  I dont believe its done alot by todays breeders do to the fact that money speaks louder than responcability.   Limiting breeding rights is a joke.  

Culling can be done humanely, drowning is abuse.   I wont discuss what I believe is humane on this board.

Animal rights organizations are to often misguided in these matters.

I didnt know the SV or anyone else had a max. litter number, thats bizzarr.

If I had a pup with two tales I would call guiness.....:]

But I wouldn't breed it.  An animal like that would have no problem living a full life. 

Brent


by Blitzen on 26 November 2007 - 14:11

Wrong, Two Moons...........Culling does NOT  mean "to kill". It means to "pick out, select and gather". Somehow the term has come to be associated with breeders bucketing newborns or killing them in some other way. Thanks for sparing me the details of your idea of "humane" ways to kill pups yourelf. I doubt I'm the only one here that is offended by that suggestion.  Maybe I am one of those misguided AR morons who doesn't understand the necessity to kill puppies oneself? If I had the misfortune of breeding a pup that needed to be euthanized, killing it myself would certainly be the last choice for me unless I lived in the middle of nowhere with no way to get professional assistance. I'd  rather use a veterinarian thank you. Instead of killing puppies to keep the breed standard, it might be a better idea to just not breed so damned many GSD's in the first place?

Anytime a breeder grades his or her litter, it is culling. The decision then becomes what to do with the inferior dogs from that litter.  Most place them as pets on neutering contracts and/or with limited registration or no registration at all. Killing puppies that are not up to standard is rarely practiced in the civilized world.


by Blitzen on 26 November 2007 - 14:11

Do Right, I believe in Germany that foster mothers are usually available for larger litters over 8 (I think that is the magic number).  If I had a newborn with some hideous deformity that would not allow it to lead a healthy life as a pet, then I would have it euthanisized by an animal care professional. If I had a GSD born with alot of white or a kinked tail for examples, I would NOT have it euthasized, would place it as a pet. Both dogs would be considered "culled".

It is possible to neutered puppies before they are placed as pets, tubal ligations for the females, vascectomies for the male. Many vets can do that surgery on very young puppies and it is not all that expensive so the initial price of a pet will more than cover it.


by Do right and fear no one on 26 November 2007 - 15:11

I would like to know from soneone who knows for sure, whether or not under the SV rules in Germany, that litter size is controlled.

Thanks Blitzen, but I find it strange that foster mothers are "usually" available.  "They" must have a large number of females, and those that only have a few pups themselves.  Do people really have that many dogs?  I also must say that I find your caring noble but I really doubt that many large (meaning those that have been breeding for many years and have lots of females), breeders would use a vet to put down a pup.  I think the actual thing that would happen is less humane.  It would be a money and convenience thing.

I used to raise and race homing pigeons and I tell you one thing for sure.  There was many pigeons that had to be culled and no one in the world who participated in that sport, took their pigeon to a vet to have it put down humanely.  Also, you can't just turn them loose or dump them down the road.  Not even a thousand miles away.  They are homing pigeons. 

I would like to clarify that info I received from somw Germans that live here in the U.S. and breed GSD's, that told me the SV "over there" has pups from larger litters culled.  I believe they told me the maximum amount of pups allowed to be raise and registered is 6.  If this is true, could this possibly work in the USA of the USA?  I seriously doubt it.


by Blitzen on 26 November 2007 - 15:11

It is 8, DoRight, I know for sure. The SV rules are on line at:

http://siriusdog.com/articles/sv-rules-german-shepehrd-kennel2.htm

Now exactly how many in Germany conform to all these rules and how they are enforced by the breed wardens and how puppies are culled is another question.  I don't hear of many litters of more than 8 living GSD pups being whelped anywhere, so there might not be a big need for foster dams and some breeders have more than one litter at any given time, so have their own fosters on site. I'd be surprised if many puppies in Germany are "killed" because they are excess baggage.  I don't think the SV prohibits puppies from being hand raised either, so that's another alternative to euthanasia. If Uli is reading this, I hope he will give us an answer to this one. The breed wardens know if there are foster dams in the area. The rule addressing the litter number is found at 4.2.4 on page 2.

I certainly hope that people who kill their own puppies are at a minimum in today's world. I am sure some do it to save money while others might do it out of necessity. Maybe they can't find a vet at the time of birth, a very, very sad situation and I have to think that posters to this board would only consider it as the last ditch effort to put a little pup out of pain and not as a convenience and/or moneysaver for the breeder. Idealistic? Not in my mind, to me it's humane and anyone who can't afford a vet if euthansia is needed should be breeding orchids, not dogs.

Your original question was - is culling killing and it is not.


by Blitzen on 26 November 2007 - 15:11

BTW, when you access the above link, read on about the fosters, etc.. The SV does not permit owners to kill  their own dogs.


4pack

by 4pack on 26 November 2007 - 15:11

I read about the German puppy "rule" years ago and can't remember if it is 8 or 10. I know it isn't 6. The import I purchased has 8 in at least one litter.


by Do right and fear no one on 26 November 2007 - 16:11

Hey Blitzen, thanks very much for that link.  I did internet searches and did not come up with that site.  I appreciate it.  I had heard the story about them culling more than a certain number of pups and I thought how sad. 

I thank you again for clearing that up.

Now I have to go back and read the entire rules about everything.  Just from the little I read just now, they are different from the USA rules.  I love to read.  Just hate to wear glasses and contacts are hard for me to put in and out.  I know people that just pop them in so easy but it takes me twenty minutes sometimes for just one eye.  Literally.






 


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