Qustions about culling? - Page 8

I remeber reading that book but can't rememeber the name either. I touched on this earlier. To cull a dog based on something cosemetic to me is not right.

I would cull only for temperment/health issues. That is the point I was trying to make. The showline dogs that have the white patch or toenails or are a 2 inches to big or small. Those are where the pet dogs should come from.

I see no reason to bucket or otherwise hand kill whelps when there is a vet available. If it's a matter of killing a puppy that is suffering and there is no professional help, then I guess you do what you have to do. I think most vets would sell their clients a bottle of acepromazine to use to euthanize whelps "just in case" any are born with some hideous deformity. It would be more humane to give a whelp an overdose injection of a tranquilizer than to drown it or whatever. I have a lot of respect for Stickland, but have to ask how she (or anyone) would know what is or what is not a humane way to kill a whelp since she's obviously  never had her head submerged into a container of water until she died,  has she?

And yes, I am well aware of what goes on in most farms,  I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I rarely eat meat anymore and never veal due to having worked as a tech for a mixed practice and having been on many more farm calls than most here other than the farmers themselves. I saw first hand how farmers relate to their animals, vets too. It sickened me, but I constantly reminded myself that these animals are not pets, they are raised to be food and farmers can't make pets of them or consider them to be anything more than meat on the hoof. I certainly hope that dog breeders have a different outlook on their dogs.The first time I saw a calf being pulled with a come-along I almost threw up. 

Now that we have established that farmers do their own culling and kill their own culls out of necessity, let's not forget that, as dog breeders, we are supposed to  relate to our dogs differently that they relate to animals raised for food. Calves in squeeze cages being fed only milk to keep their meat pale for the meat market may be prefectly acceptable in their world. However, if I knew of a dog breeder keeping his dogs in a similar way I would try to put a stop to it. Seems to me that comparing what is acceptable of a farmer breeding meat animals to be slaughtered to what is expected of a person breeding dogs for the love of the breed isn't apples to apples by any stretch, it's more like smoke and mirrors.

Anyone living in Germany and killing his or her own puppies is in violation of the SV rules. Kudos to the SV. In the US it is not against the law as far as I know, some breed clubs do address it in their codes of ethics, but those codes are not enforcable by law.

Sure it is apples to apples dogs are still animals and breeding in producing = same thing to me. It's the individuals mentality that sets it apart. If I bred pigs, goats or cattle I would feel that same for them as I do my dogs. I would give them the best care I could afford, as much room as I could to move freely just as I do my dogs. Food or not they deserve their creature comforts while they are here.

I don't think I could hold a struggling pup under water myself. I know it sounds harsh but a bullet to the head is fast and painless too.  I'd rather a pup or adult dog put down swiftly, not struggling for air. There are also other methods but would rather not cause more argument by voicing them. I'll just say I don't look down on breeders that handle their own animals. I wasn't raised to think like that or watch it growing up to become accustomed to it. (My family are city folk who barely tolorate pets and have never bred anything.) I just know it is more economical/practical to do it yourself. I live in town and we have many vets but non with an emergency service within a 50 minute drive and non will take a walk in for euth. What do you say to the little puppy who's mom wont have him or he is wimpering in pain and hunger and you have to wait for an appointment, or spend the extra $ for an ER fee and gas/ drivetime suffering? To me it's kinder to the pup to end his suffering now, than to wait and make yourself feel better by having it done by the vets hand. Just my opinion, like it or not.

4pack, euthasizing yourself a puppy that was suffering with no vet within a reasonable distance, etc is an extenuating circumstance to me.

Ulli,
I will stand corrected as I assume you have better or more recent information.  
I was quoting from the SV rules that were on the web site that Blitzen posted on this thread.  This was in section 4.2.5  foster mother, 5th paragraph down.  I did use one word wrong when I said  "knowledgable" when the article used "competant".
I did not see anything that forbid the owner/breeder to pts if he/she was a vet or "competant "person.

A friend of mine that has imported dogs for many years and is quite knowledgable about such things as breeding and the breed itself also stated that the S.V. has changed over the years, and just  based on my memory ( as poor as it is ) it seems to me that phisisophical differences have occured over the years.

As often happens on this site there is a wide range of opinions and feeling about topics such as this. Personally I hope we can explore these issues more and more in depth as to Why we have them and is it consistant with what we really believe, or are we making emotional decisions that do not line up with what we really believe.  IMO this is where this site can go wild with anger, resentments, hostility of all kinds. The fact that we do get so worked up over some of these issues tells me that their is more going on then just good sense about a matter.  

Ulli, I appreciate the correction, I would just like know more about the SV's rullings and a good web site in English.  Thanks

GARD...

crap...now im drivin myself nuts trying to remember what the name of that book was....im pretty sure it was one of the popular/ classic animal stories.....does anyone else remember reading this book?...all i can remember about it is that one part....guess that was just so awful to me as kid, that it just got stuck in my head...

Section 4.2.5 paragraph 5 of the SV rules I linked above addresses the killing of puppies.  It says exactly as Ulli has quoted.

Blitzen, 
Did you read what I wrote in regards to the SV. statement?  I am very confused becaue I typed it as it was written, the only difference being that I used " knowledge" where the SV statement used the word "competant".  Please clarify this for me as I can't imagine we are reading different statements. I am late for a meeting now but if any one else can shed any light on this please let me know.  Thanks

"Puppies with any deformaties, and such that have not appeared on further view to be viable or keep with the littermates are to be killed at the latest on the 11th day painlessly (and only by a doctor or a competent person) and only under anesthesia."

Olskool, I guess it's a matter of interpretation as to what is "painless", who is "competent"  and who can administer the required anesthesia. It would seem to indicate to me that, unless it is legal in Germany for a layperson to possess  the drugs needed for anesthesia and euthanasia (may be the same drug) and to adminster such to an animal, the SV requires it be done by a doctor (veterinarian) or a person competent to administer anesthesia - ie an animal care professional. I can tell you that is is illegal in the US for a vet to give or sell to a client any form of barbituate as it is considered a controlled substance. Some vets do it, but if they get caught they will pay a big price for trying to help a breeder. As far as killing them painlessly,  I'd think that is why anesthesia is first required, so the pup is unable to feel any pain or discomfort associated with the euthanasia. Somehow I don't think that drowning a pup or putting a bullet in its head would meet the definition of painless, no living human would know that.

I'm not going to beat this to death, but I know a lot of dog breeders who do not equate culling with killing. To some culling simply means grading a litter and separating the show/breeding prospects from the companion animals.

Blitzen,
Thanks for the response. You answered my question. I was confused as to what Ulli addressed to me as I thought I had typed in just as it was written.  I agree that it most certainly points to a vet. I  just wanted to point out that I didn't think it specifically said that the owner/breeder could not do it, for example if they happened to be a Vet or worked in a capacity that gave them these rights.  I do want to say that I understand your reasoning and do appreciate you sharing your concerns about this. Most, including my wife and most neighbors feel as you do. I think we may be closer as to what's best  for the pup then it appears, just different perspectives on the process. Either way I may send you a PM so as not to drag this thing on.

I think at some point in the future it would be benificial for  many to explore why we believe as we do, and does it line up with the way we do business. My understanding in regards to dogs, people and life in general is an ongoing change and it is important to me to be open to seeing faults in my perceptions.   Know this, I am as much of an animal lover as any one I know, even to a fault. My definition of love or how it is manifested may not line up with someone elses.  Thanks for your time.