by SchHBabe on 27 November 2007 - 14:11
If it's possible to have a civil discussion on this thread, I'd be curious to dicuss the topic of out-crossing the GSD with other breds, such as Mals. This is a surprisingly emotional topic, judging from fragments of other threads, which I find rather odd considering that the GSD breed itself originated by the Captain breeding different dogs (which today would surely be classified as different breeds) to mold and shape the GSD type.
Apparently, 100 years ago it was acceptable to cross different breeds, but not today. "Designer dog" breeders get trashed for producing high priced mutts. I wonder if the Captain's contemporaries bashed him with as much hate while he mixed and matched dogs in the production of the GSD.
Personally I am not trying to advocate GSD-Mal crosses on a broad scale, so don't misinterpret my intent. However, I'm curious to hear some discussions on pros and cons. That is, if we can keep this sane and civil.
by Mosemancr on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
Its not like it would really hurt the GSD, because once bred with the Mal, then its not a GSD anymore, technically. I dont think any of us here have any right to pass judgement on to another for something thats not immoral, none of us are god.
Something I would want to know is "why?", what would be the long term goal of this? What would you be trying to accomplish here? I think if you are cross breeding the Mal and GSD for "drive" or for a smaller more agile GSD, then I'm not sure if thats something I would do. Why not just breed the GSD with those intentions. Stop breeding for Show and Schutzhund, and breed with something like French RIng in mind, and do keep in mind, this is all just my opinion. As for looks, some look a lot alike, so I really don't much a reason to breed for looks. As long as theres nothing immoral here, I see nothing wrong with it. I personally love the GSD and wouldn't change anything at all. If anything, moral responsibility should always be the main focus.
by Do right and fear no one on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
Simply put, outcrossing will produce healthier and genetically better dogs, which may or may not perfom the function that you were "hoping" they could perform, better or worse than either of the originals.
Outcrossing does not produce dogs that will produce "predictable" progeny in their appearance or abilities in their subsequent offspring. So, the first outcross may produce very nice dogs for what you intended (I assume the normal GSD or Mal work ethic and ability), but unless you have strict control and knowledge of what you are doing from there, it could go downhill quickly.
If an undertaking of this sort was started to produce better dogs for Schutzhund (GSD x Mal for example) was undertaken to produce better police dogs or whatever, it would require enormous cooperation between many many breeders around the globe and I feel that it would be impossible to accomplish, as we all have our own agenda's.
If one person undertook this experiment, then he or she could possibly succeed in coming up with a "breed" that is better all around than either the GSD or the Mal, it would take their lifetime, lots of "testing" (titles, trials and such), be a full time job, and lots of money. That person would also have to have strong intestinal fortitude to make hard decisions, and more importantly, correct decisions.
Capt. Stephanitz dedicated his personal life to his endeavor of creating the dog of his vision. One could argue that he did not quit get what he was looking for, but had to settle with something that was "good enough". It has been said that "the GSD is good at everything but not best at anything." I would argue that Stephanitz really wanted a dog that was the best at what he was searching for. A herding dog with owner loyalty extreme, healthy and capable. Since he (we) actually ended up with a dog that is full of health concerns and is not near the best at herding, he had to have been slightly dissapointed with the outcome.
If another decides to create a breed from crossings, I am sure they too will have to settle for "something less" than what they were looking for. That is life.
But, a cross of many dog breeds can and usually does, produce a more vigorous progeny, health and genetics wise. The real question would be whether or not, wolf blood could or should be used to help with the genetic problems of the GSD, not the Mal or other recognized breeds.
This subject could take a lot of detailed explanation about genetics, expectations and testing procedures, that I am not qualified to write, but I have a general idea about it as I have pondered for much of my life (as I am sure many here have) the thought of creating my own breed. A legacy so to speak. However, one usually doesn't have the time or money for that until you retire, and then you don't have the time left to accomplish it completely, only partially. So, I guess I will have to leave my grandkids my comic book collection instead. If I ever decided to undertake such a task as attempting to create a new breed or my own making, I would start with a Rottweiller x Dobermann cross.
Which begs the question of whether or not Stephanitz had any relatives still alive that are breeding GSD's and if they have any written, previously unknown to the rest of the world, papers of his with background information, about the "little" things that went into his process.
by Bob-O on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
Yvette, please go to the thread: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/69130.html Here you will find the discussion started last year by Jantie with all the contributions so far. I am not a fan of mixing the breeds, but Dr. Raiser's comments have caused some serious discussion about what is "wrong" with the modern GSD. I think the intent of everyone is to produce the true GSD to the F.C.I. standard, and one that is a joy to own and/or work with-not a nerve bag, not an unhealthy dog, etc.. I think we are all on the same page here.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
by Scoutk9GSDs on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
Some of you think that crossing in the Mal is going to look like a cross. If it is done correctly then you wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Some people have been doing this anyway. The Mal is a close enough relative of the GSD that the nonpredictability of the offspring isnt going to be enough to worry about. The same goes for the Dutch shepherd's dog. You would still want to breed towards the same type of GSD but it takes a few generations. Another misconception is that the influx of Mal blood is going to make the GSD flightier and chase crazy. The correct dogs must be selected and then then correct crossings made. You guys will never agree on this so this idscussion is all academic. I wouldnt try wolf blood if I were you....stay with herding breeds.
by Do right and fear no one on 27 November 2007 - 15:11
Jeff: I agree with you in principal, however unrealistic your thoughts may be in actuallity. It just ain't gonna happen.
However, your statement about not breeding to the trail winners is contrary to almost everything currently being done and the debate could go from here to there, as it is someowhat radical.
What would you breed to what, to get the correct GSD for the future? Would your answer basically prohitbit all bu a few from being able to breed GSD's? Just curious and trying to learn from all sides.
Additionally, if you could put up a link to a GSD that you think is what we all should be striving for, I would appreciate it (if one exists yet).
by Goose on 27 November 2007 - 17:11
I am not a fan of crossbreeding not to say I am 100% against it. I am not. There are situations where longstanding crossbreeding programs have produced wonderful working dogs.
Fact is that the "ideal" (as ideal as they come made by mother nature) dogs are out there. But it takes time, experience, money and a lot heart and effort to find them. And then to breed them. And only them. I agree 100% that people have to look beyond the latest crazes. It takes a lifetime to learn about a subject in depth. There are no quick fixes. And in a society where instant gratification is a must and everyone thinks the universe revolves around them alone, I don't see the right mindset to truly make a difference. Hard to believe that I am normally an optimist.
by apple on 27 November 2007 - 17:11
Outcrossing with Mals has been and is currently being done with some well known breeders. They don't tell the public about it and the papers are falsified.
by Bob McKown on 27 November 2007 - 18:11
I,m just new to this so for me to even suggest to the powers that be is a joke But here it goes.
What I feel needs to be done isn,t bring into the lines a different breed no matter how closely related, is just good sound breeding period. Not this heavy headed roach backed hock running animals that the german and american show folks are pushing at us lets be real serious here if you took the average show line dog both from america and germany and put them thru a real breed worthness test vertical wall, real attacks hard helpers you would find that most can,t do the work, but this is what they are bred to do it,s not rocket science it,s not super secret stuff why has this happened $$$$$$$$$$$ pure and simple every one acts like this needs 20 years of research done to pinpoint the problem it dosent. If we make the test a real breed worthness test then thats what will need bred to pass but instead we are breeding dogs like "High Boys Hill Crest Flyer" and the money people flock to it...only the one thing that keeps the breeders going is the people who rush to buy said dogs, Mals are nice for what they do, for me... I want a German Shepherd not a cross bred dog.
I can,t imagine Reiser was completly serious about the fix or that he wasnt refering to the show breeders as being so far out that a real break in the road wasnt needed but atleast he is in the mind of change . In my opinion the german shepherd dog has to pull it,s self up by the boot straps here and fix it,s self and the only way that is going to be seriously done is by a major shift in breeding by the powers that be and I don,t seriously see that happening in the near future unless everyone gets on the same page and the title of that page is " The German Shepherd Dog is a working dog, and should be bred to that end with a real breed worthness test".
I own a GSD he is small to mid sized (68 to 70 lbs) full of energy (actually been refered to as a mal) very physical can clear a 6 foot vertical wall with a single bound, can run all afternoon and still work the field,good color nice teeth good hips and elbows,Can be at times a little nervy (mostly when trialing with me) but he is my ideal of a German Shepherd He has produced some nice pups Most are currently working. Would i have the balls to say this is the absolute specimen of what it ought to be ...absolutley not but it,s closer then alot that i,ve seen that sell for thousands of dollars and there are more out there that need to stand up and say this is what the breed is suposed to be.
We control it,s destiney all we have to do is do right by it.