Out-crossing GSD with other breeds - Page 3

DDRShep,

I agree that there are some fast, agile GSD's out there.  I wish there were more.  I saw a male GSD at an Ivan seminar earlier this year that was every bit as fast and athletic as a Mal.  However, he was an anomaly.  Pity.

Honestly, where I see the advantage in the Malinois as a breed is because it is not "popular" and has not been overbred like the GSD. 

Also, there seems to be far more unity of purpose among Mali breeders - breeding for performance, not "pretty".  As to the nerve issues - yup it happens.  Fortunately they're not all like that. 

One point that I find interesting is that it seems every Mali person I run into could care less about pedigree and papers.  They just want a dog that works, and don't worry about what dogs (or breeds) are far back in the lines.  The GSD crowd has a completely opposite attitude.  And to what end???

Even if it could be done, and improved the breed, it wouldn't be sustained.  It would be overbred and watered down again.  The REAL problem is the breeders, not the breed.  Like Jeff says, there is good breeding stock out there, time for the breeder to raise the bar and keep it high.

What's wrong with keeping records (pedigrees)? I say the one advantage GSDs have over some other breeds is all that history behind them...if you studied pedigrees, like what produces what (and not have to base everything on phenotype because we all know those dogs who never produce themselves and vice versa) well enough you at least wouldn't be going into your breeding program blind. Problem with not knowing anything about a dog, do you know what recessives will pop up, how the parents' health were, how the brothers and sisters were? There's so many tools out there to help with breeding, I agee with the other guys saying there it's the breeders who are at fault, NOT the dogs.

I think the point she was trying to make is the Mal and Dutchy people still have papers, and they still look at pedigrees....but they arent going to think any better of a dog with Arko Kikkert (really amazing KNPV dutchie) in his pedigree than a dog with joe schmoe dutch mal in his pedigree...as long as they work the same.

In the GSDs...its all about the pedigree...not as much about the dogs themselves.

~Cate

LOL people from other breeds comment on that all of the time.

I agree in a sense.  I do see Mali people getting wood over turcudos and other notable Mals.

lol - I dont know the Belgian Maly people as well...the guys near me have Shepherds, Dutch Mals, and Dutch Shepherds...and they're all pretty much of the opinion that its going to work for a police department anyway and thats all that matters...the pedigree is a big woop to them.

~Cate

Jeff, I agree with much of what you say tho would perhaps pick a bone around the issue of the "extreme" dog and your statement "I do not believe that a stud, or a bitch will consistantly (or ever) produce better than themselves, ....". Re the extreme - and this may be a matter of semantics- I will agree they need to be in the gene pool and need to be accessed on a periodic basis but with care. If used constatnly then you will end up with a nerve bag Mali. And I'm sorry an animal can produce better than themselves - this has repeatedly happened in animal husbandry which is why humans persist in the endeavor. Sometimes it is the result of a spontaneous benficial mutation, sometimes it is an accident that does not reproduce itself(called a sport) but more often it is the result of a dedicated human being who had defined goals and a plan ( sound like Capt Max perhaps?) who CHOOSES breeding partners with the intent of compensating their strengths and weaknesses.

What we need more of is those 5 and 10 year goals or more likely 5 and 10 generation goals thus the need and use for pedigrees, koer reports and the like. I get so frustrated with those on both sides of the aisle(show and working) who ONLy breed to the current style and winner. Two old breeder sayings which I have posted before. 1. When breeding you should be looking/planning for at least 2 or 3 generations down the road not for tomorrow ( and today thru frozen semen we have great opportunities to preserve dying traits and use that in our planning but for the most part it is not being used for that purpose)  2. If the worst puppy of your current litter is no better than the worst puppy of your first litter you have made no real progress.   When I came into this breed ( before the bifurcation into working/show)  it was possible to find a dogs that had pedigrees where multiple individuals in a litter were koer'd, had attained a Sch3 level(even bitches) and were VA, V or SG in conformation.  Breeders placed ( not sold)  dogs with friends and associates to be able to accomplish this. Today it almost always is breeding for that one star in the litter that will then let us inflate our prices and sell the rest of the crap off to unsupecting people.

It starts with what we as individuals will choose for. I also agree with Bob M that we need to bring back back a real breed worthiness test but I think we also need to find a way of incorporating other talents the GSD has such as herding, SAR as well ( more about this in a minute).

Now to the matter of the original question - crossing w/ other breeds specifically Mals. For me personally, I have absolutely no interest in bringing Mal blood into our breed - I see nothing that they have to offer other than creating some real nerve issues. Most of the police departments I know who went to using Mals when they became the latest fad ( as Rotties had been before them) are abandoning them as they age out and they are returning to GSDs. Best explained to me by one of  our local handlers who had a wonderful GSD from Holland ( small, typey, agile - its all in the selection).  He was describing field exercises they would do and one was the possiblity of a hidden perp. His dog would go to work and if the perp was present find him and hold him. If not( and they varied it) he immediately knew but did his quarter and return to his handler. Meanwhile the Mals would still be out there spinning in circles going gotta be someone here someplace, gotta be gotta be.. I've seeen this same behavior in tracking when they can not solve the problem they spin and lose focus and as my friend so elequently said - "They stop thinking and my guy never stops thinking".

A lot of people view hybridization as an easy fix to any problem. Quoting Do Right  "Simply put, outcrossing will produce healthier and genetically better dogs.."  Well first of all wrong. What you will get in terms of health and genetics is what you put in. If you put in dogs with health problems just because they are from 2 different breeds does not make the health problem disappear - in fact you may end up worse off. And nerves are a health problem. Plus many genetic diseases are either poly genetic or have a threshold method of inheritance and you've probably just added a boat load of  factors to your genome which will make these diseases more difficult to eradicate from the genome not easier. As to the suggestion of adding wolf - anyone w/ 2 gray cells understands the instability and problems of that particular endeavor.  Another old story that relates to the whole cross breeding thing is the one about Marilyn Monroe and Einstein. Supposedly she says we should make babies together - think they would have my beauty and your brains and he responds but my dear what if they had my features and your brains.