They are all the same breed - Page 3

Yup, that's her picture I posted above, 4pack. Sorry, I forgot to put her name in! 

BTW, the original Rin Tin Tin was a sable:

Americans can screw up any working dog given to their own devices ie Irish Setter, Spaniels, Golden Retriever, Schnazuer etc  the list is long.    AKC stands for  "Americans Know Crap."

USA Club needs to spin off  entirely in terms of registry and promote strict working standards only... or you will continue to see decay & sub par- standard dogs..

Kudos to the working breeders for their dedication,  the minority.    And will continue to decline in numbers unless a real split occurs w/no crossing working to conformation registries..   The die hards will always be around & need to be of like mind.  A breeders guild that promotes WORK above all else.  

I think that  form follows function & beauty is as beauty does, are both true &  very poignant addages.

Hi Sunrise, in reference to your photo of Ch Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes, ROM, PT, TC, it's refreshing to see just how much this AKC top sire resembles a good German showline dog in the photo below.  He looks like a different animal here, from that  Best in Show win photo in your post above:

I honestly think a great way to go would be to do a study on what structure will produce the best kind of working dog and the best possible health.  That would be something else to read!

I sort of am another of the school that feels that the structure that can work the best is the most attractive structure.  Now I dont necissariyl agree that the American's are the only ones screwing things up....I think anyone involved in any kind of showing in any country can screw up a breed easily because they are really just looking for the purty and less for the structural integrity needed to produce a good dog.

~Cate

DR&FNO,

I understand what you are saying, and not like you need me or anyone else to validate your opinion. However, (isnt there always a however or but?) I believe that when a responsible breeder breeds a litter, they plan for all the pups to be incredible dogs in their eyes. They are breeding to improve on what they had. With that usually comes a couple of pups , usually more, that do not measure up to the high standard that breeder sets for their program. Those pups, may not have the "over the top" that sports enthusiasts are looking for. These pups will have, hopefully, good character, temperament, physical well being. It doesn't matter whether the line is show or working, there are always better than and less than in each litter. Granted, probably fewer better than in show line than in working line, there in lies the problem.

It is great that there are people that want stable family pets. Without those people, a lot of us who breed would be left holding the leashes of the dogs that, in our eyes do not measure up for the work (whatever that may be, SAR, herding, personal service, LE, sch, ALL of which require stable sound nerves!!!!!and excellent temperament).  Stable sound nerves, character, and excellent temperament does NOT mean over the top drive, crazy knock your furniture over dogs. It means a dog you can live and work with from environment to environment.  What I think most of us are saying, okay what I am saying is that this type of solid nerve and strong temperament is what is sorely lacking in most show line dogs. When you breed for pretty, you (you does not mean you personally, just a generalization) aren't always looking at the WHOLE picture. Many who breed for pretty, do so because that is where the big money is. They can sell a pup out of the dog of the month for 3K! No puppy is worth 3K unless it can crap out gold bricks and vacuum my house!

A stable dog is a stable dog, whether it is pretty, working, or following you around the house begging for Doritos. I assume, that most people who want a GSD, as just a pet ,want a stable sound temperamented dog that is not going to bite everyone, hide in the closet when there is thunder, and jump out a window on the fourth of July! When you view a gun shot test at a sieger show, you see dogs cower looking for an escape route. That is NOT a confident dog!

Yes agreed American's are not the only ones screwing things up. I would like to also point out the bulldog breed is somewhat strugling with the same issues the GSD is. They mix lines, types and sizes, show and working with a little less hostility maybe.  

Do Right, I have a stuffed dog that might be just what your looking for. He looks great next to the fireplace, never barks and he doesn't have fleas.

Also I don't think anyone is saying dogs should just be for work. Some dogs don't work, some people don't want them for that, just don't breed em unless they do. That's how we keep it a "working breed".

They DO breed GSDs that don't work.  Why look right in the American Bred isle and you will find the dog of your dreams.  In the meantime, thank god the SV requires they work.

"It is great that there are people that want stable family pets. Without those people, a lot of us who breed would be left holding the leashes of the dogs that, in our eyes do not measure up for the work (whatever that may be, SAR, herding, personal service, LE, sch, ALL of which require stable sound nerves!!!!!and excellent temperament).  Stable sound nerves, character, and excellent temperament does NOT mean over the top drive, crazy knock your furniture over dogs. It means a dog you can live and work with from environment to environment.

A stable dog is a stable dog, whether it is pretty, working, or following you around the house begging for Doritos. I assume, that most people who want a GSD, as just a pet ,want a stable sound temperamented dog that is not going to bite everyone, hide in the closet when there is thunder, and jump out a window on the fourth of July! When you view a gun shot test at a sieger show, you see dogs cower looking for an escape route. That is NOT a confident dog!"

Very well said Dee

But this has been explained time and time again by many posters and people still use excuse after excuse to breed pets, when there are plenty coming out of actual quality dogs. I'm not sure if some are so dense they really don't "get it" or if they just want to do what they want to do and justify it to themselves in whatever way they can.

To me, at least, Ch Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes bears very little similarity to a good German-bred dog from showlines. His pedigree is replete with dogs prone to early death. He certainly didn't live to a ripe, old age.

During the very late 1980's, I had a male standing at stud with me in California sired by AM GV CH Kismet's Impulse von Bismark (from the same kennel as "Dallas"). His hips were OFA "good" but he suffered from FCP (fragmented coronoid process) and propable EPI. I bred him based on his preliminary xrays. However, when I xrayed him for OFA and found out the problems he produced, I returned him to his East Coast breeder--who placed him with another breeder friend who would use him at stud!

For my 40 years plus in the breed, I have always had showlines that have been able to work (obedience, tracking, herding, therapy dogs, assistance dogs, police K-9, custom's dogs, SAR, Schutzhund, etc.). Yes, when he was appearing ing the Passing Parade of Shepherd Greats at a GSDCA National Specialty (where he had twice been high scoring champion), I heard people whispering about my Ch Tucker Hill's Oracle UDT and describing him as "Louise's obedience dog".

Even today, people breed (even bitches from primarily working lines) to my studs from German lines precisely because they can work and have longevity and constutional vigor. I can't believe that I am the "Lone Ranger" in having show dogs that can work.