Dogs that spin vs. Dogs that don't - Page 6

I don't get the point of the videos, Jeff - neither dog is spinning.  Did they used to spin and now they don't because of this excellent training?  Or are they just examples of high-drive dogs who don't spin.  There are lots of those - high-drive doesn't mean can't handle the drive.  The very best dogs are those who are high or 'extreme" drive and yet can handle their drives and remain clear and focused.  So, the point of the videos was.......?

Jeff-  I think you elaborated on the spinning to the extent that I understand now what my trainer was trying to explain to me.  The dog doesn't spin out of control non stop.  He told me it's so minor that he should not have even brought it to my attention to trip on; we'll fix it.  She does not take a bite, spin or do anything crazy.  In fact once she takes the bite she seems more than satisfied, drops the sleeve and then is quick to want to reengage the decoy.  I noticed the spinning when the decoy backed off of her BEFORE she took the bite.  I'm new so I was not absolutely sure how to interpret the behavior.  Which is why I posted the thread- to get others input.  I being a novice saw this and if asked would have answered this behavior as the dog being so pissed off that she was tied to a pole and wanted to take the bite really really bad.  More like being anxious.  Does this make sense?  Maybe some folks are taking this to the extreme or maybe I'm not elaborating enough or being thorough in describing the reaction....in any case she doesn't come out spinning and continue to spin the whole time.  She does focus but she is a very intense dog, much more vocal and lets you know with everything she's got you pissed her off and now it's game on she's coming for ya.  Honestly, if this little quirk can never be fixed not a big to me she's an awesome dog and there is absolutely no fear in her whatsoever. 

My trainer does not train just for sport, he has trained dogs for patrol work, drug dogs, pp dogs as well as participated in titling his own dogs in schutzhund.  Perhaps since he has a law enforcement background is why he does not make a big deal out of a little spin on a dog???  Thanks for elaborating more on this topic, it was helpful.

This "amped" up training jeff is talking about, why is this done in SCH, is it  to help lower drive dogs to look better, so they hide the wekaness behind this amped upp training that builds alot of frustration in the dogs and therefore bite better and more intense? To me these very frustrated and stressed upp dogs are not so impressive as the dogs that are more focused and calmer in the B&H, but still has a powerfull presence and do strong attacks, without this stressed behaviour. It´s seems more common in SCH than in other protectionprogramms, and I guess for a real life workingdog, like a PSD, you also want a more focused and calmer dog, compared to the one  that are so stressed up that he almost not know what he are doing.

Jennie, you are right on the money.

molly

What's the deal with the video.  This was merely whip action in an attempt to make the dog key on the man and not the sleeve.  I'd rather see this work with less to no whip and the dog protecting the sleeve from the decoy who is trying to take the sleeve.  This is an example of the dog showing good aggression with the aid of a whip.  What does the dog do with the man threatening without the whip?  But again this is not a thinking dog but a reacting dog.  Can this dog do a controlled sit and bark.

Capping drive is the dogs ability to control itself and maintain focus while in drive. Controlled sit and bark.  Some dogs leak drive during the sit and bark not because they are weak but because they feel less threatened.  Dogs showing monstrous amounts of aggression and fanging up is not impressive if it can not be controlled. 

The video of Zender is always a treat.  There is also a video of Zender taking the sleeve off of the helper during an escape.  Zender does a nice controlled sit and bark.  This has nothing to do with loading and uncontrolability.  In fact kudos to Zenders handler and training club for maintaining control over this beast.

How are your dogs grips indoors, on slippery surfaces, in the dark, under a pick up truck?  This is a test of nerves.

Kyle

Do most clubs use the whip all of the time?  I have been to a few clubs and the whip does not seem to be used much at all.  My dog doesnt need to get wound up....the sight of the helper is all it needs.

I was told by an experienced helper that hyperactivity is sometimes confused with high drive.  One difference being the hyper dog cant focus or cap.

If this dog always spits out the sleeve and goes for the helper how did they title it?   If it was that civil I think it would have been hard to work with and you may have more to correct than what you realize at the moment.

That's what I saw in the first video too Jeff - a lot of whip, a lot of noise , lots of work and STILL the dog wasn't focused on the helper, not too interested in it.  Without all the work, what would the dog have done?  Maybe not much.  Zender - looks good.  But, what does either video have to do with the subject - dogs who spin vs dogs that dont'?

molly

Raven, no the huge excess of whip-cracking helperwork is not the "norm" in my experience.  But the helper is there to "help" and maybe that dog needed that kind of stimulation to get the drive and aggression up?  I don't know, from watching one video and not knowing the dog or the helper.

molly

Thanks molly

I thought I may be missing something without all of the whip cracking going on.

I am sure the whip has its place but I would assume the better dogs wouldnt neeed it.  

In agars situation it just seems like it adds more fuel to a fire that is already out of control.  It sounds like agar needs to tone down the training a few nothches if the dog is a civil as he/she thinks....especially if a new handler.  It doesnt sound like the dog enjoys the work or being put in that position.  She may be wanting to bite because she feels that she has to bite...thats a big differnece than just wanting and enjoying a fight.  Its hard for new people to tell the difference some times.  I know I made that mistake:-(

I know helpers are there to help but I am finding out all helpers are not created equal.

The previous is a good example of why not to post video.  This may be the only time the guy has ever used a whip but by watching the vid it looks like he is whip happy.  I wouldnt want people posting vid of me working one dog (or any) it to easy to jump to conclusions.