The Biggest Problem of the Breed: Nerves - Page 4

Don:  I asked the question, are they the same thing.  I understand that they could be different but I think that they could also be the same, depending on the scenario.

Is it confidence, nerve, stupidity or necessity, if I walk into a bar in a very bad neighborhood to use their pay phone if my car broke down and I am in a suit and tie?  Especially if there is a service station down the road, but twice as far to walk as the bar is.

I say it is not necessity and it is not stupidity.  I say that it is nerve and confidence.  Different perhaps.  The same thing, perhaps.

I do not want to debate the point any further.  This has been discussed on previous threads and frankly, I am a little tired of making enemies, so I will just say, "okay, you have a point".  But, the way I view them, they are the same.  I had a Chihuahua once that did not know how small he was.  He would take the food bowl from any dog of any size.  It was confidence and was nerve.  He generally succeeded without a fight because he had displayed the confidence and the nerve to just do it.  I would not be able to say just one or the other to describe his actions.  But "okay, I agree with you".

Do right

You know i am not one that needs to argue and I am sorry if you took my post as hostile.  It was not intended that way, just discussion.  Maybe what people get cofused with is using the word confidence when they should use courage?  Maybe that is what the discussion should be.  I dont think that nerve is a learned behavior, while confidence is gained.  I can build confidence, but I cannot build something that is gentic and predetermined.

Three things I must have :

1. Strong Nerves

2. Confidence

3. Boldness

Defination: I know it when I see it.

What does being too stupid to recognize fear fall under?

I hope, that like most threads on this board that have any potential value, this subject doesn't degenerate into the usual arguments of "no importance whatsoever", or leading off on some wild tangent.  It's no wonder the breed is failing.

What is needed:
1. a solid definition of what nerve "is", and isn't
2. a consistent way to measure for nerve, that isn't subject to personal opinion, and penetrates to the dog's pure nature through any concealing qualities of training or other aspects of temperament (i.e. the forementioned prey drive).
3. a few good theories to test, in how strong nerve may be heritably transferable, and what are the leading causes for weak nerves.

And, IN THAT ORDER.  You can't test for it, if you can't agree on how to define it.  You can't breed for it, if you can't properly evaluate it.  And weak nerves won't be avoided, if you can't get through steps 1 through 3.

daryl, do you have an opinion on this yourself? I'd love a way to measure nerve.

I could probably come up with some ideas for step 2, but I don't feel qualified to offer a definition of nerve that fits the "model" for most people's purpose.  Cindy's definition sounds good, but I've been hoping JeffO, BobO and others would appear.

OMG here we go: Definitions!

Subjective? Objective? What meter do we use? Best i can say is get experienced people show you dogs, videos, dogs, articles, and (did I say dogs?) working. They will tell you what they see and it is subtle sometimes. Well worth the effort. Did i also mention clinics?

This is my take:

Hardness/softness refers to the ability of the dog to handle physical pressure (can also correlate to mental fitness but don't get them confused) . Yes, a hard dog can have bad nerve. A dog that is hard can take a pretty significant correction ie shcok collar at level 7 and the dog won't really react. A soft dog can take a e-collar correction of 2 and NEVER forget it. BUT a soft dog can have good nerve and not worrry about people and environmental stuff.

A dominant dog wants to be boss; sometimes aloof appearing but will want to mount or tower over people, he/she will not like you taller, paws on shoulders type of dog- ;pushy.. Again, he/she can be sof/ or nervous or hard and strong mentally.  A submissive is afraid to assert itself, and is very interested in winning your affection... hand licking, running between legs of people, etc....ears back.

So they can be separate traits. Be careful with the matings. Make sure you know really what each dog is and what each dog can or has brought into litters in the past.

Nerve is very complex because it can be shown in passive ways and aggressive ways and even active/reactive ways. Some of my thoughts on this. It takes strength of  nerve for a dog to be a seeing eye dog in an industrial area. It takes nerve to remain calm as a scout dog in a fox hole with trazers, machine gun fire, and grenades going off. It takes nerve to do very good muzzle work as the dog has his primary weapons nuetralized but still persists. It takes nerve to go into ANY environment or surface and not show any effect from the introductions. These are some examples of nerve to me in which say drive alone won't suffice but that strength of presence(nerve) is there to deal with the situation. I like Cindy's post and I also think to real dog people nerve is an intangible that is evident when seen but sometimes difficult ot describe because of overlapping things such as drives or aggression or reaction.  

Solid Nerves still depend upon imprinting, proper training and controlled exposure for an advanced level.