Facts in Black and White - Page 5

Maxis, A lady had been breeding German Shepherd Dogs since the 1960's. She was active in conformation shows as well as Schutzhund, etc. In the 70's she set her standard back to the old style, very large type Shepherds. She spent the next decade pursuing her goals for the old style Shepherds. In 1990 she separated her breed from AKC and started to maintain registry records as Shiloh Shepherds. The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. was incorporated in 1991. Due to disagreements within the ISSR other registries were formed. In 1998 the ISSDC Registry was incorporated and is now the USSDC. At this time, there are four separate Shiloh Shepherd Registries http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm See what your idea of Ignorant means? Check out the link. You should love them. I sleep well at night, I pay attention to my breedings, what I buy and I have ethics

Great points Charlie! Also I would like to know just how this data on 0% HD in wolves could possibly be done? Think about it!!! Every wild wolf would have to be brought in to be exray'd. I guess that will be the next thing Maxislooking will say! lol

Well Charlie glad to see you are not going to cull those long coats, that would be ignorant. I do not think I would recommend breeding lines of just coated shepherds, diversity is required for good health. In fact, I would recommend that they be breed back to good line standard coats. You seem to brag about where the GSD is at this point with 100 years of domestication. Even in the best breeding programs, I am sure you would say your included, we see many problems. So I propose that we are loosing what may be the best in the breed by excluding the coated shepherd. Those that have owned them know what I say is true, and those that support their exclusion have no legitimate reason to. And Debby I guess the next thing that I will say is that the result of the strictest breeding program ever created was the wolf. We are not taking 100 years were are talking millions of years of refinement. And it has only taken 100 years for us humans to screw it up, the wild canine was one of the foundations to this breed. The reason the HD is not in wolves is simple. An injured or disabled adult will never be in an alpha position. And if you would watch your nature shows you would know that only the alpha pair reproduces. Nature culls those with such disabling conditions almost immediately. Mature wolves never reproduce if they have such problems. This basic flaw in conformation would obviously not allow them to travel up to 100 miles a day in their quest for survival. Our domestic dogs are genetically the same as their wolf cousins, the only differences are how we messed them up. The gate we admire in the shepherd, is the gate of the wolf, the protective nature we admire in the shepherd is the nature of the wolf, where does the prey drive come from? You may say that the short coated shepherd has a more weather resistant coat then the wolf but that would defy common sense. By the way there are may breeds that are coated that are highly prized. Perhaps arrogance is a better description. Now you may think that my coated shepherd is just not worth much. Well we don't play in the non-real world of the SCH ring or the show ring. We play in the real world of life and death. By the time Max was 1 year old he was certified in SAR as a Ranger Service Dog. Add a couple hours of age to the most advanced SCH tracking test and you have his certification process. Last year we had a snow storm dump 6 feet of snow. He sat our of the deck for a few hours as the snow piled up on his back. The insulation of his coat is so good that none of the snow melted he stood up and shook it off. I live and work in the real world where I have to have a dog with good structure good mind and strong work ethic. Our dogs must search for a couple of days in all types of the most extreme weather, we get 1 to 2 calls per week. I would put my Coated Shepherd (son of Bax) against any of your ring sport dogs any day to find the missing boy in the woods. I do say though I would go no where else but the SCH system to buy a GSD. Regards

Hi maxislooking! I really like your dog. In the photo he is overstretched and I think it is time to update. I personally think that the coated are gorgeous. Saw a sable long coat in Germany that looked like a king. I have also seen tremendous temperament in these dogs. I am not a breeder though and I myself have "stockhaar" dogs. One a rescue, the other a show prospect. But, I am responsible for grooming, vacuuming and washing my dogs. . . And I don't know if it is that easy with a coated dog. I strongly believe in accepting a dog for what it is. A good dog is simply a good dog. Congratulations on the achievements of your companion. Max is really a fine looking animal. Wow! Sunny

"An injured or disabled adult will never be in an alpha position." There are plenty of Alpha types that are dysplastic. Many show no outward signs in their gate or abilities. Especially when they are young and in their prime. Tendons and the meaty tissues get stronger and compensate for some of the milder HD. Old age may bring some arthritis, which may effect the Alpha keeping it's position. But that would not effect the breeding. So your theory does not hold up. I'm sure everyone has watched the nature shows. We have a "Wolf Park" here in Indiana, that I have frequented. One of the so called "nature laws" is that close relatives in wolf packs do not breed to each other. Guess what...they do and have!!! Also...guess what...Not only the Alpha male has bred the Alpha female!! Submissive's have also. You can go off and say that it is because they aren't all totally free to roam 100 miles everyday. But this is not the only place that those type of things have happend. "Nature shows" need to be taken with a grain of salt, as many are just theories and they DO state that in many that I have watched.

Geez I read my post sounds like I am bragging, yuk. Thanks sunshine for your comments, I have a lot to learn from the show/competition world, like how to stack a dog... There is more grooming required for the long coat but that is quality time with the dog. The one downside is that I do have to trim the hair between their toes in winter to keep the snow balls from building up, but I had to do that with my standard coat also. There is also a downside in the extreme heat... Debby my information does not come from the Wolf Park or nature shows, I just happen to be a biologist and it comes from observations from wolf biologist working in the reintroduction in Yellowstone. Anyway you are correct when you say family members do inter-breed. But it is only the alpha pair that does mate and at times they could be brother/sister or father/daughter. That is a strict rule in the pack a alpha female is never covered by anything but the alpha male, now there are changes in pack structure perhaps that is what you were observing. But the rigor required to survive by hunting on the hoof does weed out the diseased animals early. When you see a dog take a sleeve picture the sleeve attached to a 2 ton moose fighting for its life. No room for HD in any form there and the competition for alpha is so intense that the individual just does not breed unless it is strong. There are no weak alpha pairs and often a minor injury will be the end of the wolf. Now there are some packs that have elderly animals that they care for but that is usually a temporary status. I would be happy to give you some references. You can also find more information on "Ancestral Traits" and their benefits to breeding programs in literature.

Maxi, Attempting to talk to you is like pissing into a fan.You tell us nothing, I don't give two shits about alpha this or alpha that, nor do I care about wolf stories in the wild.I don't know where you are located but I highly doubt you get called out anywhere near as much as you claim to if at all.Maybe you are a member of FEMA? Your stories of missing persons and long trails do little to impress me either.I've run Bloodhounds with some of the best in the country and a 40 or 50 hr trail for the most part was no big deal for most of us.I ran two, One adult and one pup in training..... That does not impress me any more then the stuff your are mumbling about achieving > You seem to think I have it out for just your dog and that is not true. Some of the most serious work dogs I have taken a bite from was a mixbreed.Try to stay focused this time, this is where I seem to lose you.The breed standard is just that, you seem to get hung up on that...I am not saying your coated or anyone else is not a good working dog or family pet, What I am saying it IS NOT TO THE ORIGNAL BREED STANDARD. When people start straying from the standard we end up with things like that Panda crap or the Shiloh shepherd Clearly not a German Shepherd can you honestly say you go go thru this web site and look at a lot of the dogs posted and say, gee, thats nice and to the exact breed standard?Trust me, I can't. I also don't see where you would think I'm bragging about the shepherd's we have today, infact I'm saying that they were much better then then they are now. can you not see this with you own eyes? Stop trying to defend yourself,I for one am not attacking you You have a good coated dog,I'm really happy for you. Just save me the agony of seeing shit like the the Panda shepherd or the shihlo....... That is where you and I will never agree.Anyway, hope you have a nice weekend

Never cry in beer.Shoot breeder.Shoot dog.No problem.
 

The only Way Forward Is Einsatzkommando.