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by Louise M. Penery on 01 January 2008 - 23:01

Mystere: As soon as the SV determines that substantial money can be made off them, watch the registry open up. :-)

Louise M. Penery: The only people in the SV who are supportive of full breed privileges for LC's are those who are seeking an additional revenue source for the SV. Certainly, the AKC is not about to turn down litters from LC's. Looking at an AKC pedigree or registration certificate, there is no way to determine a dog's coat status.

Nia,

I try not to ally myself with any "camp" or have delusions of Aryan supremacy for the GSD. It is rather ironic that, when I've competed in both AKC and SV competition, there has never been much respect for most SL dogs who can really work. When I entered my Ch. UDT in the Passing Parade of Shepherd Greats at a GSDCA National Specialty, I heard someone say in a stage whisper, "Oh, that's Louise's obedience dog".

The GSDCA makes a travesty when they award "Select Elite" ratings to dogs and count the following as performance "titles": CGC, Herding Instinct Tested, etc.

Frankly, I believe that, if LC's (with undercoats) are re-admitted to the SV breed registry, I think there may lots of top- working WL dogs (w/o sufficient undercoats) that squeek through their breed surveys under WL-friendly judges. For example, in a private converation >2.5 years ago, Wildfried Scheld was one of the first SV judges that openly discussed the possibility of re-opening the breed registry to LC's. Of course, this presumes that these LC's can really work and have working titles beyond breed show wins via competition at UKC shows.

There may also be many expertly "groomed" SL dogs winning at SV breed shows and masquerading as normal coats. The best solution, IMO, would be for LC's to compete as a separate "variety" (as is done with Collies, Dachshunds, St. Bernards, etc.).

Because the AKC allegedly honors FCI guidelines, will the AKC breed standard be revised so as not to fault LC's?

If the rules for the SV and the AKC change in favor of the LC's, we will have to honor them. Until then, we must abide by existing rules.

by Mystere on 02 January 2008 - 00:01

Louise, WHAT working line dogs "w/o undercoats"? The lack of an undercoat has always been a reason to exclude and should remain so--it is a double-coated breed, after all. So, your "prediction" seems to fall into the show line defensiveness behind the "work vs show" sniping I mentioned. After all, if the registry IS ever re-opened to coats, most of them will be show lines, simply because (let's be honest) the show folks have always outbred the working lines. :-) Still, it is mildly amusing to see a show person decrying the lack of "real titles" and working ability in another segment of the gsd world. NOT that YOUR Nemo's titles are in question, nor his working ability. :-) Coats, with undercoats, were accepted until, what, 1992 or 1993, or 94?

by Louise M. Penery on 02 January 2008 - 00:01

Nia,

Don't be amused at anything I do--I'm not pitting SL's against WL's. A good dog is simply a good dog. Bad dogs with poor structure/performance suck--period.

Yes, SL folks have always outbred those with WL's. In that case, be careful, girl, you may get what you wish for--if the breed registry is re-opened to LC's (with undercoats). As the saying goes, more's the pity!

by Mystere on 02 January 2008 - 01:01

If the registry is re-opened to coats (with undercoats) and dogs with excellent working ability and temperaments once again able to title, show and survey, what is the problem with that? I don't see a downside, except for folks like me who are actually allergic to dogs and already kill vacuum cleaners regularly with gsd (stock)hair. :-) To think that long hair is synonymous with poor structure is ludicrous. Hell, lots of the show's folks' precious VA dogs produce coats. They may not produce any working ability, but hair they produce! :-) and the show breeders sell those coated puppies at a premium. I know of some who only breed to VA studs with waiting lists for long coat puppies. They often sell those pups first when they appear. I just don't understand the cobb about the coats...

by Shepherd Woman on 02 January 2008 - 01:01

Mystere, I think we can talk until we are blue in the face and won't get anywhere with these people on here. They only know working dogs, etc. and have no interest what so ever in the long coat gsd. Titles, Titles, Titles is all they care about from what I have seen! Come on over and talk to some long coat owners on the new forum. Like I've said when I started this post. Everyone is welcome as long as there is no bashing in your post. Would love to have ya.

http://lcgsd.proboards98.com/index.cgi

by Louise M. Penery on 02 January 2008 - 01:01

Mystere, so, you don't see the "downside"? Well, this will mean that there will be proportionately that many more SL's bred, registered, shown, and "titled".

No one has implied that LC's are synonymous with POS structure. More often than not, they have the best structure in a litter.

Yes, SL LC pups are the first to be sold because they are cheaper than the NC's. Gad, if the propose change takes effect, the SL breeders may price LC's the same as NC's. We may truly have a GSD population explosion when more SL's are added to the registry, bred, shown, titled, and breed surveyed.

The rest of the downside may be that people (who like LC's) will be motivated to breed LC to LC.

by Louise M. Penery on 02 January 2008 - 02:01

Shepherd Woman: I think we can talk until we are blue in the face and won't get anywhere with these people on here. They only know working dogs, etc. and have no interest what so ever in the long coat gsd. Titles, Titles, Titles is all they care about from what I have seen!

Get real, SW. Titled, working line (NC or LC) GSD's is what Mystere is all about.

Von Stephanitz believed that, if we don't have a GSD that can work, we don't have a breed.

by Mystere on 02 January 2008 - 02:01

Louise: The show breeders I know sell their coated puppies for the same $2500+ that they sell the rest of the litter. Frankly, I know one who ADDS a thousand to the price, because she has so many people wanting a coat. Shepherd Woman: Thank you for the invitation, but I think you may have me confused with someone else. Now, this surprises me, because I have always been quite honest and open about the fact that I am a working line person who believes that there are enough pets in shelters that gsds should in fact prove their breedworthiness in terms of working ability and drives, stable temperament, solid nerves...and it would be nice if they are also good-looking with proper structures. If I wanted an ugly dog, I'd have a Naeopolitan Mastiff. :-) Presently, IMO, schutzhund titles, police work, SAR perhaps are the means of proving that breed-worthiness. Every dog does not need to be breed, just because the owner loves it. I am open-minded about coats because cosmetics, and HAIR LENGTH IS COSMETIC, is the least of my considerations or concerns. That being said, I lost count of the vacuum cleaners I have killed because of the gsd hair, and that has been with stock-coats. Add in my allergy to dogs (which is way less than my alergy to all these 50 billion trees in Washington? So the dogs aren't going anywhere LOL) and I don't need to have a coated gsd!!! :-) That being said, I am waiting for a puppy from a repeat breeding that produced a couple of coats and solid black pups. I am lighting candles that the pup I think is "the one" is not a long-haired, black gsd!! LOL

by Louise M. Penery on 02 January 2008 - 02:01

Mystere,

I'm afraid that SL breeders in you area greatly overprice their pups @ $2,500+--especially, for LC's. What a rip-off, IMO.

The SL folks that I know and truly respect sell their NC's for ~$1500 and LC's for ~$1000.

by greatestgsd on 02 January 2008 - 03:01

Mystere, I think you need to buy you a Dyson vacuum cleaner! I have yet to kill it! LOL

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