behavior expectations - Page 1

I have been talking to a lot of people on both the working and show side of the dog sport and I have a question to ask. We all work and know the yes and no behavior of the professions we are in. What I would like to know is what you think of the SV judges that come to our shows. What do you think when you go to the shows and on your way back to your room after walking your dog you see the SV Judge hundled in a bar booth with the owner of the "big" breeding kennels? What do you think about the placements at the show? Do you think that the best dog really wins or does the bar politics win? I am just curious.

Winners have a tendency to want to celebrate, they usually make for good company as their spirits are high – I for one would rather listen to the babble of a happy drunk than that of an angry drunk! Hey, and if the other guy is buying …

unfortunately there is ALWAYS politics in the horse and dog shows -- don't wever ever let anyone tell you otherwise !! I can site cases but let 's just leave this as a comon sense generality !! there is big money invloved !! big money ... and as i stated previously in another e-mail it tends to ruin the dog world and sports with ultimaltely the GSD to bear the consequences .. come on come on now , look at last years VA-1 ... do you really think that is a VA1 dog ... [ maybe a good V in my estimation !!] a novice perhaps will haver a harder time to critique .. i am not a big time breeder but i do know sheperds better than myself even ..or if you disagree that is AOK but then i challenge you to go to germany and take a look at ANY VA dog or for that matter V rated dog... --they far surpass our VA1 !! let me ask ... WHY are not the dogs rated first without names --just a number first at the show then the pedigrees and owners revealed .. .. i.e. - why is there not anonimity ??? the dogs should be assessed purely without any prelimanary input to exhibit favoritism or biasness .why does there even have to be 1, 2 and 3 place ..foolishness -- many a time i see a V- 15 for example produce or work better than a V-4..- that's human nature ..does the dog care if it is VA1 or Va2 --please people .do you think there is no wheeling and dealing , now now --honestly

I have usually seen the Judge with the hosting club having dinner and a few drinks. But this is smaller shows.....so I don't know. I have heard that some of the large show kennels will find out who is judging and go wine and dine them befor the show and I have even herd of one kennel tht will go and buy the judges dogs that he has for sale his good ones and his crap then show all of them and his other dogs, so that he will do well. Don't know if it is true but I have heard it a few times. Heather

This discussion pops up every now and then. Attempting to discuss it in a few paragraphs here is not enough. I'll try to touch on a few. First to become an SV judge there's a lot to accomplish. Titling dogs yourself, serving an apprenticeship under another SV judge and generally having the knowledge and character that the SV determines is in their best interest to allow you to be a judge. Once you are a judge. You have a responsibility to place dogs in a class correctly based on your knowledge of German Shepherds. The placings depend on your likes and dislikes as you acquire knowledge from week to week. This includes physical features, mental abilities the judge sees in the class, bloodlines and what those lines produce. If there is a male in the working class from an obsolete line that is a little better than another. There may be a circumstance where in the judges mind the other dog with a more promising line may be placed higher. There is a place or two latitude for judges preference. That's the reason participants often select the judge they show under. It helps if you know the type of dog the judge favors and plan your strategy accordingly. It's the smart thing to do. The crowd around the ring is usually knowledgeable. They can tell if dog A is better than dog B and if the classes are not placed correctly. It doesn't take long before there are small entries under that judge. Who wants to be the SV judge that favors someone's dog and after years of work have small entries in your class? Answer, not many. This judge will not be judging any sieger shows in the future. There is additional pressure to judge a class correctly. Look at the sieger show results. These judges select the top dogs from year to year. If the top 20 dogs all go to the working class next year and get V rated. You have done an excellent job and everyone notices. If the dogs you placed high bomb out, everybody notices that too. There is a checks and balance system in effect. Notice the judge of the females walks the class with the judge of the males and vice versa. This is to share why the judge of the class placed the dogs as they are to the other judge. If someone protests the results. There's a second opinion of the judges results. Disciplinary action is not uncommon. You may recall a few months ago where Peter Messler was banned. This came out publicly. There are other instances where a judge has appeared to favor a kennel or dogs without justification. When this happens it's dealt with, on a large scale. The SV does a decent job policing itself overall. The kennels you see buddy up to a judge, buy a dog or two from them for whatever reason and jump to another judge for essentially a flavor of the month program will not last. Bottom line for me and my experience is: There's just too much to risk for an SV judge to place dogs outside the area they deserve in a class. There is more motivation to place a class correctly than suffer the loss of credibility or embarrassment of suspension. If you use your time and resources to educate yourself about what is a good dog, find a good dog, train a good dog, show a good dog. You will do much better than someone that tries to get favors from a judge by other means.

Being in dogs for a while now, I get angry when people say politics play such a big role, because the politics are a factor, but not the way you think. First of all, judges are people, and they each interpret the standard a little differently no matter how exact you try to make the standard. knowlegable exhibitors know the style of dog that judge likes. As members of a club they will also push for the club to bring judges that like the style of dog they have. They do this by saying "Judge X is knowlegdeable, fair and does not play politics" implying Judges Y and Z who like another style dog are not knowlegdeable or honest.But, they did not really say that. Exhibitors also search out to exhibit at shows where the judge will like their style of dog. Now, Why should you sit at the bar with the Judge? well, I did something like this when a judge who I did not know, liked my animal and gave her a big win. He came over to try and convince me to sell her to him. I was honored, and listened to him as to why he liked her so much, and what dogs he had, and what plans he had for breeding, etc. but she was not for sale. If a judge honestly likes a dog and gives the animal a substancial win, he/she would likely be interested in learning more about that bloodline, etc. So they may want to chat with the winner. Often, Judges are blamed for favoritism when they seen to often place high wins on progeny or grandprogeny of animals they own/ed. It is in most cases not politics, but instead the fact that breeders produce and aquire dogs that to them are the "correct" style acording to their interpretation of the breed standard. Progeny or decendants of the dogs they own/ed bred are often most likely to reflect the style of animal that judge interprets as the best fit of the standard. When I came into this sport, I was told that the Comformation shows were all about politics. Over the years I never found that true, but learned that the most important thing is to go to as many shows as you can, ask questions, and listen. watch what dogs each judge likes, and research into what style of dog they like best. Often, you can see can a twinkle in the judges eyes when they see an animal they feel is spectacular. Lay low and listen. Most judges are proud to be judging and take their job and influence over the breed very seriously. unfortunately, their can only be one winner and many losers, so you are always going to hear conspiracy theories from losers who may just have a great dog that it not the style a particular judge felt was the most correct by his/her particular interpretation of the standard. Best Wishes, Jo-Ann

Thank you all for your input. I had heard that the show dogs are very political. I guess I will just have to get out there and see for myself.

What about the big kennels who take the SV judge on a nice cruise before a national show? Don't tell me this doesn't happen! Also, when a working class judge is seen shmoozing with a top contender during the working class courage test just before the dog's performance, as I saw during the NASS, tell me, how is one supposed to interpret this?

Redcap, You tell us about the cruise, you have made the accusation. Please explain which kennels you know did this. It's not proper to make such accusations unless you have personal knowledge and can cite where it influenced a decision where a dog was placed ahead of where it should have been placed as a result. Basically are you stating first hand knowledge or leading this discussion into the trash can with heresay? As far as the "shmoozing" goes. Did "shmoozing" change the dogs performance on the field???? I doubt it. I'll bet the dog didn't know its owner was "shmoozing" and suddenly went from a crappy dog to a good dog that put on a spectacular performance because his owner was talking to the judge. In order for this theory to have an effect. You have to tell the dog that this is the judge and he must perform to some degree better than he normally would. I'm not sure the dog would understand and do this. I think the dog would just do what the dog knew how to do for you and everyone else to see. Do you think the conversation affected the dogs performance? Feel free to PM me.

Judges are human and have friends like everyone else. Also, most of them would not place a dog high just because it belongs to a friend. This is because of the checks and balances that Dog1 explained. Most judges know the big kennels and vice versa. This is usually only because of the length of time they have seen each other in different shows , having bought each other's dogs etc etc. In other words, if they want to promote a big kennel dog, it is not necessary to get wined and dined the day before. There are several judges around . If you don't fancy one, just don't bother entering.