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by Blitzen on 18 February 2008 - 02:02
I felt the same way, Cheryl. What did I do wrong this time 
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by Get A Real Dog on 18 February 2008 - 04:02
I think it depends on what the dog was purchased for.
If the dog was purchased for breeding, show, or sport, the pup should be replaced for the cost of shipping. Period.
If the dog was purchased soley as a pet, it should depend on the severity of the disease. I would say anything more than a grade 1 should be replaced or partial refund given.
As for the dog, if I were a breeder, I would want it to stay in the home if the owner wanted to keep it. Why would a breeder even want it back? What are they going to do with it?
No disrespect to several here who I have the utmost respect for:
the ONLY people I have ever heard try to say HD is not genetic or the environment plays a more important role are GSD breeders. I have never heard that statement come from anyone else in 20 years of dogs. If they have temperment issues though boy, thats bad genetics.
If nutrition and environement play such a key role in HD, why do specific breeds have obviously higher ratios of HD? Especially with the GSD's? With all the diligent breeders and owners who feed Royal Canine 24, Raw, or any other sort of $50-$75 a bag dog food and don't let their dogs run on slippery floors or jump until they are like 5 or something.
There are two ways a dog becomes dysplastic. Their skeletal system does not develop properly or they get injured. That is it. Bones either grow right or they don't. Connective soft tissue either holds bones together or they don't. It's that simple. A puppy runs and slams into something, falls down stairs and lands goofy. That is an accident and an injury. Genetics or injury; anything else is just an excuse.
If environment were such a prevailing influence on HD, there shouldn't be too many cross bred ranch dogs in the world who get fed Ol Roy, sleep under a house, and start chasing cows, sheep, or barn cats @ 4 months old. Their hips would be falling out of their sockets.
HD, eyes, backs, skin problems, temperment are ALL genetic. Every aspect of a living creature is based in genetics. Yes, environement plays a role in a number of things, but if the genetic pre-disposition is not there, the problem most likely will never surface.
by hodie on 18 February 2008 - 05:02
GARD is RIGHT ON IN THIS REGARD. IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO A PREDISPOSITION (Genetics) barring an injury. Just like everything wrong with my damned body!
None the less, we can modify many genotypical expressions by seeing that the environmental elements are carefully monitored. Good diets, appropriate exercise for the age of the dog, etc., etc., can make a difference. Nutrition, for example, is one of THE most important factors in the competent immune response. It is no less with developing bodies, be it a dog or a human.
by sueincc on 18 February 2008 - 05:02
I was just over at the OFA website and found some interesting statistics:
The OFA considers HD a genetic disease, however; the OFA website states environmental issues (food, excercize) does factor into the severity of the disease. I don't think anyone here said HD is not genetic or that environmental issues play a more important role. I've heard a few unscrupulous breeders (not limited to GSD breeders) try to claim HD is 100% environmental, but I trust them about as much as I trust used car salesmen.
I have friends who are breeders of retrievers bred for hunting & field trials. I have working border collie breeder friends. They are all very concerned about bad hips, and the disease is a major issue within their breeds too. They too feel nutrition and exercise are an important piece of the puzzle.
GSDs are 37th or 38th as far as breeds having the highest percentage of HD. Goldens, rotties, setters are a few of the breeds with a higher percentage of HD.
by Blitzen on 18 February 2008 - 06:02
I think the OFA stats are skewed on most breeds since they only see the xrays that are likely to pass; seldom do they see the bad ones. I know of very few people in any breed who submit an obviously dysplastic film to OFA.
by D.H. on 18 February 2008 - 07:02
Several years ago a very short lived book was published in Germany, and then banned (no freedom of speech in Germany) that described the result of actual breeding tests with dysplastic dogs, and how feeding influenced the offspring. You cannot get these books because they were taken off the shelves and a publishing ban imposed. The basics: several severely dysplastic parents were chosen and bred. One dysplastic parent, two dysplastic parents. Not a single dysplastic pup in the offspring that was fed the diet that was designed for the trial. More recent studies have found for example that minor things such as coat quality is affected by the quality of food fed, and not just for the animals that are fed diet X, but the offspring up to the second generation (grandkids) of that original breeding group. Makes you wonder what diet does to the bones and joints if it already affects coats.
People used to be 4 feet tall, and had an average life span of 30 years. During times when food supply was at its worst. No one thinks twice these days about people that are 6 feet plus, average life span is between 70 and 80 years. In the developed Western World. Quality of food supply most certainly has a major influence on our bodies and quality of life.
Different breeds are affected in different ways because different breeds are built differently and also have different needs. And have been selectively bred differently. Sighthounds had very little HD. No speed and running ability usually meant the dogs were not bred. But HD is on the rise in show sighthounds. Go figure. Still, with Ridgebacks for example, RRCUS (Ridgeback club of US) has done their own breeder surveys. Its been a while and I have not kept current on recent figures, but in the mid to late 90s the OFA average for dysplastic Ridgebacks was over 6%. Yet RRUCUS breeders, who adhere to a voluntary breeder code of ethics, had a 2.2% rate of dystplastic dogs at that time. A large number of dogs was surveyed, 1800 or so. Its not such a common breed, so that is a big number for that breed. In addition, out of all these dogs, I believe only 3 dogs died as a direct result of HD. HD did not even make it into the top 10 list of causes of death. Conscientious ownership and breeding practices most certainly had a positive effect on HD rates. Breeder code of ethics included more than just screening for hips. People raised and fed their dogs well and sensibly and it showed.
With the GSDs we see sometimes see ambitious competitors, or rather wanna be competitors, who are on their 4th or 5th dog (often even more) that comes up with bad hips or elbows and its still always the breeders fault, or the lines, or whatever. They never consider the possibility to question what they are doing. Even after a clear pattern emerges. Here is the flip side: I have never had a case of debilitating HD. With 2 breeds. Nor have any of the people who have stuck to my raising instructions. Luck? Genetics? Common Sense? All of it. Successful breeding and raising is a holistic approach. You cannot apply a single patch and think it will take care of everything. Or be reckless and say genetics will make sure my dog will be fine no matter what, and if it is not then it was bad genetics.
GARD, I am quite familiar with several different breeds, and no the GSD folks are not the only ones who say HD is not just genetic. Random studies, different breed organizations even national kennel clubs support that. We already know that HD is polygenetic, meaning you cannot select for a single gene, because more than one gene is responsible. You want some facts? OFA was established in 1966, yet in over 40 years, the
by D.H. on 18 February 2008 - 07:02
...there have been no significant improvements in HD issues. There were some initial improvements. And since then? AKC states on their website: "Puppies that are overfed, especially the large breeds, are more prone to bone diseases when they grow too fast or become overweight. Keep pups lean and healthy during their growth phase, and disorders such as hip dysplasia and osteochondrosis are less likely to occur." So here you have a National umbrella organization that looks after all breeds, and they make that statement.
An interesting article, by a woman who is well respected in the breeder community as a driving force for overall animal wellfare, especially for a breed that is as difficult to raise successfully as Great Danes, Linda Arndt, is posted below. I had the pleasure to talk to Linda a few times several years ago. Great lady. There are some insights into hands on HD experiences, and how a food that Linda helped formulate especially for the needs of Giant Breeds has made such a great difference for a lot of dogs and their health. So yes, diet has a major effect. Lots more info on that site that is well worth reading as well.
http://www.greatdanelady.com/interview_with_linda.htm
Here is a quote from that article to wet your appetite a bit:
" .... When the results came back the dog was rated as grade one hip dysplasia. Needless to say the owner was absolutely hysterical.
I rarely see things as strictly black and white so I called an orthopedic vet who had read for a mid-west university. And this is what he advised us to do. "Linda", he said "first, make sure the x-rays are taken by an orthopedics vet... you increase your chances considerably".
"Then each breed has a monthly quota. Make sure your x-rays are mailed in at the first of the month because once they reach their quota you are S.O.L. regardless of the condition of the hips".
He recommended re-submission of new x-rays. We waited the designated time period, repeated the x-rays and re-submitted to OFA - and guess what - they came back OFA good.
Now you tell me, how can a dog be dysplastic and then a few months later he is free of hip dysplasia? ... "
by Speaknow on 18 February 2008 - 09:02
by AKVeronica60 on 18 February 2008 - 20:02
Hi DH and others,
DH, can you remember the name of this book that was banned? I have heard it exists, but no one remember's its title, nor do they know how to get ahold of an existing copy. I would think that if it exists, with the importance of the study to the dog world, someone would have kept a copy reguardless of the ban.
I am not at all making fun of you, one of my best friends in the world, also German, swears this book exists and would love to find a copy of it, though she also cannot remember the name of it nor the title. It seems like an urban legend.
Veronica
by AKVeronica60 on 18 February 2008 - 20:02
I meant, neither the name of the author nor the title.
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