Puppy Contracts, 50% discount for replacement? - Page 5

Soooo glad I joined this 'list' today in time to read D.H.'s insight of HD... how lucky for me!!!  May I ask specifically what your guidelines are regarding exercise and food for pups?  MANY THANKS!  jan

Alos what type of time frame is giving to diagnos.

and remember the contract is giving as kindness to appease in europe most dogs no matter what price are sold "AS IS"

If your new dog died when you put it in the car they will offer to sell you another.

Maybe HD is not 100% genetic, but until there is proof positive that theory really has no bearing whatsoever on what a breeder should guarantee. If a dog doesn't get an OFA number, IMO the breeder is obligated to make restitution in some way when the pup is represented and priced as a show/breeding prospect. If a breeders doesn't want to do that based on his or her belief that a dog can be "made" dysplastic by mishandling. then all their dogs should either be sold as pets with pet prices or retained until old enough for a prelim. It's absolutely not fair to blame a buyer for a dog's developing HD.

OFA makes frequent mistakes, more than one dog has been refused a number with one xray, redone, and went on to receive a normal hip rating and a number from OFA. Happened to me 2 times.  Both my dogs went from being mildy dysplastic one month to OFA goods the next.  They were redone and certified using new xrays, but I've heard of that happening when an owner resubmitted the same xray.  Dysplastic the first time, normal the next, same xray. Sadly some dogs have most likely been neutered or maybe even PTS due to an incorrect OFA reading.  Obviously one can't always depend on the opinion of the xraying vet either. Not sure of the SV's record, hopefully their readers are better educated than some who the OFA uses.

Best advice is to learn all you can about what a normal GSD hip should look like and the correct positioning. If in doubt, re xray or submit a copy of he rejected xray to a board approved veterinary rodiologist. Always keep a copy of the xray or pay OFA to return it. Or you can use PennHip instead of or in addition to OFA.

 My personal opinion, based in medical science, is that at the core, everything except for injury is genetic. The question is whether a particular trait or problem is expressed. That is where the environment (or nuture) comes in. Generally speaking, I agree that it would be improper to hold a buyer responsible for HD. I think of it this way. Joe Schmoe has a 9 year old son. His sons' elbows and shoulder are not fully developed, nor are his muscles in his arm. Joe Schmoe wanted to be a great major league pitcher, but that fell through when he discovered in high school that he could not hit the side of a barn when throwing a ball. So he opted to concentrate on physics instead. Now he has a son in whom he can live vicariously. The father, by the way, has osteoarthritis in his knees and shoulder. But he wants his son to be a great pitcher. So every summer he sends him to a camp where all the kid does is throw baseballs. All year the boy plays catch with dad. This summer, the boy is excited because his coach decided to teach him to throw a curve ball. Suddenly, the boy is complaining that he has pain in his arm and shoulder when he throws. A visit to the orthopedic surgeon reveals the beginning of arthritis in his elbow, and a calcification in his shoulder and hole in his rotator cuff. In this case, do you think it is genetic or environment? Well, it is some of both and exactly the proportion of each is hard to assign. 

We do know that diet makes a difference. We know that preventative care makes a difference. And there are many other aspects related to nurture that can make a difference, but bottom line, all things barring injury are genetic. Can I avoid HD in two dysplastic parents, perhaps. Can I have HD in the pups of two non-dysplastic parents. Absolutely. Can I make a predisposition to any medical condition potentially worse or early onset? Of course. 

As a breeder and trainer, about all I can do is advise people about how to feed and work their pup. We don't jump pups, and we do not do road work with them. Still, people are people and some cannot wait and will do things with their dog that are very dangerous or in this case, ill advised.

If a dog is genetically programmed to have dysplastic  hips, even it it were possible to surpress that  expression with diet and environmental  control, why would you want to?

 Blitzen,

I doubt that if one is genetically predisposed to any condition that one could suppress that expression completely. But I do think it possible to minimize the expression of some aspects of disease processes. In the case of bone and joint and other structural facets, the development is programmed and will likely express as the dog grows. Can one minimize the consequences of HD for example. In my experience with hundreds of dogs, the answer is yes, particularly if caught early on. 

So did you get your question on window shopping figured out???  You know its not the same as getting IN the car and driving it (G)...smell the leather?

The offer youmention ounds like another contractual difference  (words offerings)  A potential buyers have to consider for themselves.Honestly what do you think? Is this something you can live with without feeling resentment if something DOES happen?  If someone has  to *ponder* that question then IMO they should decline period.

I personally go for the dog/pup I want or like and want from bloodlines I like and want . I dont want a legal contract with the breeder.. I want to be the sole owner and bare sole responsibility for the animal until death due us part period. Others want this or that contract with the dog and owner, that is fine and , its a personal choice that each adult must decide.

Basically when obtaining any new animal I am taking on a lifelong commitment. I dont want to go back to a breeder and get 1/2 off another one.... and I bet most people that love the animals dont either.. they just want and strive for a hearty animal to begin with.t. Thats not to say that *offering* a replacement or anything in the sales contract is a bad ideal... sounds like a good wil jesture...but of course it doesnt help with vet bills for the one that is ailing.  And this type of offer for someone that had hoped for a breeding prospect can help absorb the cost loss.

The HD discussion here is interesting as well but kinda mixed the subject. so I will stay out of that.

Cheers

Debi and the Sherman-Ranch herd

I don't buy it either, Hodie.  IMO it's in the genes and the degree/severity can maybe be kept to a minimum with diet and environment and it only make good sense to me to not over-feed a pup, to not allow it to walk on slippery surfaces 24/7, not allow it to do a lot of running and jumping, and to not feed it Old Roy. However, if a dog is not genetically programmed for HD it is not going to develop it because it walks on a slippery floor or doesn't eat a specific food or supplement. Wrong puppy rearing can make a mild into a moderate, but it's not going to make a normal into a dysplastic. 

Again, even if it is proved sometime in the future that one can surpress the expression with a specific diet, supplement, whatever, what's the point since the dog may still be genetically programmed to produce it anyway. What is gained if future generations are not given the same preventative routine? If that routine is stopped ( which it surely would be, how many buyers are going to follow through with it) it's likely that the next generations could have more severe HD than if the prevention was not used in the first place.

I don't have a problem with any breeder not replacing or refunding full price on a pup with bad hips as long as that dog wasn't not represented and priced as a show/breeding dog. Selling a pup for a high price represented a show/breeding prospect and then not standing behind that sale is not the right thing to do IMO.

 Blitzen, you and I are on the same page.....

Sharyn