Training with force? - Page 1

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ill wont introduce an exercise w/ force but do use in on the dumb  bells and track when needed.

IMO you MUST use force if you want to "V" any phase at a regional or national level.  Now,  having said that, force can be as little as stern "NO" w/ a slight correction on a prong collar or a back tie to teach the cumb bell.  but at the end of the day w/ out force there can be no accountability for disobedience, and w/ no accountability there will be no consisyancy.

what folks dont realize is, is that force is just like the water faucet in your house.  not enough pressure and nothing happens, too much pressure an the pipes burst. you've gotta find the middle ground where water comes out just right.

just my 2 cents

Well put wscott.

Well put wscott.

Hi,

Just curious about some 2008 training:

Does anyone use force methods? By this I mean force retrieve and force tracking?

Naturally, I don't mean this applies to puppies - I'm asking about adult dogs.

If you do train retrieves and tracking with compulsion, why?

If not, why?

Steve

www.sl-prokeys.com

Let me preface this by saying I neither condemn or condone force. But when you mention a showline bitch I felt compelled to reply. Often you hear people try to describe differences in showlines and workinglines by people. It has been my experience that one area that shows the difference between the two is the use of force in training. Very very few showline dogs that I have seen have produced effective results with force training. They usually shut down. Now stay with me and don't steer this to morality of using force. I'm pointing out that one of the traits that I value in a working dog is the ability to run into adversity and RECOVER quickly. When i have seen force training done with showlines and many DDR lines, the result is not usually optimum. I agree with OScott that there is a balance that is needed in all training, but the use of force training methods often illustrates the differences in showline temperament and workingline temperament. No judgement being made as to good or bad of force, just observation of type of dogs that method can be effective with.

I do not use force in either tracking or retrieves because I do not need to.

I have a dog that is TDex and FH1 and Fh2, why would I use force to train tracking, my dogs LOVE tracking.

My dogs will retrieve anything, anytime anywhere they LOVE it.

All my training is motivational.

Those that believe that consistency and high marks are not possible without the use of force or compulsion are merely that, believers.

This does not make it a fact as hundreds of top handlers in ALL disciplines will attest to around the world.

langhaar

im ont saying you cant teach dog to track w/ out using force, im saying that if pressure is used the dog will have more accountabily for his actions.  Ive seen many many folks trakc w/ out using force.  there are several folks in our club that do not use any type of force or pressure when tracking.  and theyve spent the last few years trying tofigure out why thier dog does not stay commited to the track. AND THERE IS NO WAY THEY COULD EVER, EVER,EVER "V" TRACKING IN TWO NATIONAL EVENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here is how it was explained to my by someone i look up to in the sport.  in OB, if you made a right turn would you let your dog keep goint straight or turn left and catch up later?  i hope the answer is no. my answer is no.  So he posed this question If you wont let him be disobedient on the OB field why would you let him be disobedient on the track.  If the command is to track, that means follow these footstep, not along the side, not go past the corner 3 steps. PEROID!!!!

track is track.  now there are a few assumption i must lay out 1 we assume the dog already know how to track and understands corner.  2 pressure can be a stern NO, a correction on prong collar, E-collar, or force track.  3. there will be times you let the dog work thru his problem.

like i stated earlier you need to know how and when to apply pressure.

You see I disagree but I look at dog training from a slightly different perspective I suspect.

first of all competitions are not brain surgery, we are competing for our own ego, we are not saving lives.

therefore I can see absolutely NO justification for force (whereas I could for example if I need to give my dog a life saving vaccination etc).

So if I needed to use force I probably would not bother.

As dogs do what works and what the want is contingent on how they work, it is simple.

My dogs WANT to be "correct" etc.

What most people consider as "disobedience" etc I usualy consider as "insufficient training" "insufficient knowledge" and/or "insufficient understanding" which then puts the onus on ME to make it simpler for the dog and provide sufficient reward.

Coming off the track when using food, is obviously less rewarding than staying on it, therefore the dog learns all by itself that if istays on the track it gets what it wants, if it does not then it does not.

If my dogs make "mistakes" they are usually down to me........

1st off i can see your point and concede it is a good one. but you must realize that most folks (at least those that know what they are doing) will teach and train the dog 1st and when the dog has a clear understaning then pressure is introduce.

2nd i think we do look at training differently, i do it for my ego, i do it to someday be the best.

so are you saying that you dog "V"'s tracking at the regional level, time and time again?  i can tell you how many times ive seen dog that overshoots a corner then turns around to find it.  dogs that have been trianed w/ out pressure and w/ pressure are capable of finding a corner and tracking well.  but the dog that understands tracking and has had pressure is the one that will stop dead in his tracks and check left, right, left, right, then go when he is sure which way the track goes.

by all means you can train a very good tracking dog w/ out pressure but you will never be able to compete against the best if you do.

case and point Wallace Payne scored 98pts in the FH championships w/ out a leash.  he simply turn the dog loose and said track.  there are two things you have to note about this performance.  1 the dog must understand how to track.  2 the dog must be accountable for being disobedient.  when wallace said track he meant follow this track footstep by footstep.  not along the right side, not over shoot the corner.

you mentioned that your dog was a tdx, fh and fh2. is your dog sch3? the only reason i ask, is im interested in know the scores and if they were local trials, regional, or national events.

if you've not shown at a regional or national event, let me tell you its a different world.  your 95 or 97 track may only be a 88 or 90.