Showing German at an Ameraican Show - Page 6

My ultimate paragraph is misleading.  What I meant to say that a dog out of German lines that is untitled/ofa's or equivalent hip/elbow rating, not breed surveyed or conformation rated, or has parents with equal lacking pedigrees has a better chance of finishing in AKC.  Jim and Esko proved that German lined dogs can do it.

Dallas was a fine dog.  But he just would never have the pedigree to do anything in the German ring.  IMO.  I am however unsure why he was so successful in AKC because he is probably the most German looking dog I have ever seen coming out of American conformation lines.  Surely he was not a "specialty" type dog.  But now I am speaking out of absolute ingnorance.

I recall showing some of my dogs from German bloodlines under well-known handler/judges at AKC sanctioned matches.

Once, 4 littermates were shown in the same class. None of them were considered as serious contenders for high placements. The dog that looked "the most German" came in dead last--despite the fact that he was the best of the siblings--had been VP-1 in a class of 16 under Rückert. I heard some of the good-sporting exhibitors referring to these little guys as "Germs".

At another match, one judge said he would love to take one of my dogs home with him. However, he could place him no higher because he "looked to German".

I showed several dogs at an AKC-licensed-specialty show under a well-known breeder/judge who should have appreciated the German type--based on the appearance of her own dogs. However, my dogs (who had done extremely well with SV judges) were SOL when it came to decent placings at this event.

As far as I'm concerned, showing our German-bred dogs at AKC shows (as credible contenders) is largely an exercise in futility without a well-known handler--JMHO. I will be glad to name any of the above judges.

OTH, I recall showing an AKC bitch (yes, as a puppy, she had also placed high under Dan Smith) bitch under SV judge  Grottendieck to an SG rating in an untitled class. One of her adult "half-breed" (1/2 German--1/2 American--later schutzhund itled) sons received an SG rating in a 12-18 or 18-24 class under Walter Martin!

When I titled my German-bred male (V-rated, SchH3) to AKC obedience titles, we were criticized for our animated schutzhund-style heeling. At AKC trials, it looks more professional for a handler to carry the right arm with elbow bent and clasped at the waist. One obedience judge also questioned the size of my SchH1 dumbbell in AKC Open obedience.

So much for my masochism!! I'm too old to "make a difference".

It's a very simple matter.  Just look at about 10 win photos of the American Shepherd GSDCA (AS) select dogs and then compare them to 10 photos of German Shepherd (GS) SV VA dogs or high V dogs with little or no roach.  They look completely diffferent because essentially they are different breeds.  The differences are clearly obvious to anyone who is objective.

The American Shepherds (AS) have noticebly pushed forward fronts, with very steep upper arms almost extending straight line from the lower legs (when posed).  The AS dogs have long flat, weak backs, steep croups, long lower rear thigh bones (sickle hocks) and shorter hocks.  The AS are long, really long and look like a suspension bridge (they look terribly distorted, terribly ugly to me), and the AS males have large , long bodies, small flat skulls, long banana muzzles and look bitchy.  The colors for the most part are much less attractive han the GS dogs, usually black saddles with tan or grey.  he coats are inferior and shorter than most GS dogs.

Now in most cases the German Shepherds (GS dogs, ie from german bloodlines from Deutschland) have good proportions, the males have large nice, correct heads, shorter backs, proper setback to the front upper arm and shoulder blade, proper withers, longer rear hocks, shorter lower rear thighs and upper rear legs bones (close in lengths).  The pigment is usuallty quite attractive with black saddles and red or "braun".  The sex type differenxces between males and females are distinct and proper in the GS and not in the AS.

I suggest you print out these dog's photos off of this site, take tissue paper and trace the outlines of the photos. Label them AS or GS and then compare them one over the other up against a light source.  The differences are exactly what I state here because I have done this and it is conclusive.  I think AS dogs are really ugly and should have their own standard (they don't follow the one they have now accurately, however).  If this is what they want, fine, but these creatures are not real German Shepherds anymore, they are derivative prancing ponies, selectively bred for the show ring only.  I have coompared these with a top AS breeder and he admits the differences but likes the looks of the AS much better!

In American shows, especially at the National, it all depends on who is judging.   A couple of years ago a half German bitch went Select 2, she had finished at specialties, with all majors.  In recent years several of the grand victors were very moderate, with correct proportions, and better fronts and strong, athletic rears.   Honky tonk Man (2005) and Army of One(2007) are both very moderate and closely related to Dallas.  Both have excellent bone and masculine heads.  Then move well, keeping thier feet close to the ground.  Dallas , BTW, finished at specialties and his owner handled him to many of this points.   I've had the pleasure of working Honky Tonk Man on sheep and much like Dallas, this dog is awesome.  He has strong work ethic and excellent character.  However his owners live five and half hours away.  And he is now nine years old , so he only earned a PT.    I've also worked several of his and Dallas' progeny and as a rule they have excellent characteristics.   Better than many of the dogs I work with whether American or German bred.  

If you want to be successful in the American ring with your German bred dogs then you need take good dogs.  They are not going to look at your pedigree.  You need to take dogs do not have a roach.  The dog needs to move out in front of you with out mincing steps, moving faster than they are shown at a German show.   They need to move out.  Look at your fronts and rears closely, are you taking a puppy who is easty westy?  Or a dog that has long, cow hocks.  Are you showing that dog to its advantage?  put him with a professional and see the difference.  Also consider showing several so they don't look that different.   Get a group of your friends together and put several dogs in each class.  Make sure they are groomed to the nines.  I've seen lots of German dogs that I felt would do well at the AKC shows, most of the judges do not like the unsoundess of many of the American dogs either.  I believe that is why Dallas did so well.  However, you got to show them well, and do not expect to win all the time.   Keep at it, learn how to show them well, and take good, sound, correct dogs, and you will win your share.

Susan

I'm not good at judging a GSD by a photo only, Preston, so need some help in that area. It seems to me that the AS's are traditionally set up to show an extremely sloping topline, the more slope the better, and they are stretched beyond looking like normal dogs that could function as tending dogs 24/7. On the other hand, it looks to me like many of the German highline dogs are traditionallly set up to look roached on their photos with squatted "frog-like" rears and they don't look like normal dogs to me either.   I'm not quite sure why either of those poses are so popular. If those photos are all that are used to judge either "type" then it's no wonder most AS breeder hate the imports and vice versa.  Seen in the flesh these dogs can look a lot different. I've found that suggesting an import breeder go to a big AKC show and look at the GSD entries is like suggesting most Am lines breeders attend NASS. They think if they get caught looking they will be turned into a pillar of salt. There are a few exceptions and these are generally the breeders who are combining the AS and the GS and coming up with some nice dogs.

I have printed out  photos of a few of the top German showline dogs, the ones with the most rear angulation, and place a straight edge along their backlines. That made them look pretty damned "American" to me. When the roach is hidden I honestly didn't see an shorter a back on any of the GS's than I did on the AS's. I'll have to try the tracing suggestion. The biggest difference for me was the head shape, overall substance and the length of leg. The AS seems to be lower stationed with shorter legs than the GS's, I myself don't care much for that and sometimes I find it hard to judge if a dog is out of balance due to too long a back or too short a leg. I need to learn more about how to do that too.

I didn't get to the Garden this year, saw the breed video, and did noticed that a few of those dogs there didn't look quite as extreme as they have been in the past. The dog I liked the best was sired by a Jim son.  I like Moses's Dallas daughter too.  Haven't seen either dog in the flesh. Anyone who has attended that show knows the rings are way too small to move out a GSD at the right speed, so forget even looking at movement if you ever go there. 

I guess we all see something different when we look at a GSD; I happen to like many dogs from both sides of the pond including most of the working lines I've seen. Whoever said beauty is in the eye of the beholder was a very wise man or woman, but probably not a dog show judge

Here is the KEY from SMITH "presents itself in a way that American dogs present itself"!!!!
"Do not bring a dog to an AKC show that is running at your side, is butt-high an has no front and say, 'Well, it has great structure.'  If the judge can't see the structure, he/she can't judge it."

Buts its OK for the dog to have a straight front and stand 27"-28" tall, as long as it can moves!!
Can a Judge not tell structure from a clean coming & going, and a stack?

Yes Mr. Smith the dog is trained in SchH Obedience, but I guess this is a bad thing.
Funny 155 dogs entered in the Specialty Show, NOT one with a non-conformation title!!

My daughter placed him SG1 in the Adult Open Class at the Canadian Nationals & Sieger Show a few weeks latter.
Were he HE measured 25" tall, by SV Judge Mr. Ernst Seifert.
The dog that placed behind him was handled by the Judges grand son, this dog went SG1 at the USA Sieger Show.

DeeJay looks pretty darn good on that photo and your daughter is doing a good job with him.

Sorry - I have a mildly stupid question here - but what exactly do you mean by butt high?  Do they mean uphill...in that the shoulders are lower than the rear end?

If that is the case I can just not agree...highlines definetley arent high in the rear...personally I think they're too low....makes me wonder what they would think of WLs in the ring

When I get my working line pup I might just be asshole enough to try O.o

~Cate

Deejays Owner:

                         PUUURRRRRFFECT!

                          VERY NICE!!!

                                 WOW!