SV to Reinstate Long Coats in 2010 - Page 4

Spelling mistake in word 'Dog' in the above post, the posts cannot be corrected it seems on this forum once the button is pressed that is it

Steve

Daryl,  A number of us have criticised the banning of SLC for years because of the genetic diversity issue - not that it did any good. But that is one reason I applaud the GSDCA because an AKC registered SLC can be bred and can be titled in SchH or herding in the US. Re the work - coats have always "done the work" both in the sport , obedienc,herding and as police dogs. One of my personal favorites owned by a friend had her SchH3, FH, CDX all by the age of two and half AND was a natural born herder on top of that. Never had a herding lesson but gathers the neighbors sheep and returns them to the pasture when they get out when asked to do so. Many working dog people and obedience people actually sought them out because of that special partnership I mentioned above.

Blitzen Have to agree with Steve. I've seen you make this claim several times and to me it  "doesn't hold water" (no pun intended) for several reasons.  At best it might apply to a LC with no undercoat but that is NOT what we are talking about here. Next Germany is not the Artic and I believe many parts of the US have winters as severe or more severe than in Germany. When I lived on the Canadian border it was not unusual to have -20 degrees w/o windchill and sometimes even lower. None of the GSDs I've known had any of the problems you mentioned tho granted they did not live otuside 24/7 which brings me to your claim that "tending" ( i.e. herding by any other name) dogs do that in Germany. Now I am more than ready to be corrected by someone living in Germany but my understanding of the herding world there is unlike our range stock in the U.S. that their sheep are in fact barned or confined at night. Thus the use of dogs to move them along the roads to get to the fields they will be grazing in the day and the use of dogs to contain them in those fields because at least in some parts of Germany it is/was not common for those fields to be fenced.

TIG~ I agree- I live in Northern Ontario where we have cold winters -Our silly LC won't come in to the house in the winter until I make her come in. Granted she's not out 24/7 but she handles the cold quite well and prefers to be out burrowing and rolling in the snow. As for the summer yes we do have a little more work getting the burrs out of her coat than our last GSD but all in all she isn't all that bad to clean. The eagerness to please and drive this dog has doesn't reflrct the nervous conditions I'm reading here. Its a coat nothing more. I was leary about getting a LC with our new pup and I'm so glad I let my wife decide- couldnt be happier with her tempermant, drive, loyalty and intelligence.

Tig

I can guarantee that Germany  is no colder than here where i live in Belgium As i said ilve no more than 50 kms not miles as i said in my post above that will be about 40 miles from the German Border and i have been to the North and South West and East side of Germany in the winters for at least three of the years in have been here in fact 6 weeks ago it was Minus 5 degs centigrade here then and it was about the same in Germany,which is cold not not unbearably so. it never bothered the Dogs at all they rarley go into the kennels of a Day time and when they do they have the Kennel but nothing at all inside they sleep on the floor inside the Box, No Blasnket or anything else, a waste of time they bring it outside and drag it around the pen

I used to have a Plastic Basket inside but they were forever trying to drag it outside but of course the opening was not large enough so i said okay so sleep on the floor this was four months ago and they are fine, They are as in as good condition you can get them, So weather is no problem its the way they are fed and looked after which counts

All my Dogs from a Collie Cross to Terriers to a Lab + Staff bull terrier and G.S,s have always lived outside when in England , and England is about the same as over here for weather conditions winter, spring, and Summer, and as wet

Never have i had the slightest problem with any dog living outside 24/7 in over 50 years of keeping Dogs So i take what Blitzen says with a pinch of salt, unless he lives over here and can prove it then there is little point saying it, and he could not prove it even then because it is not true

I have an idea it can be cold in Canada my niece lives up in the Okanaga other side of Vancouver perhaps not spelt right but she says it gets cold up there, but i always say A Dog used to living outside from a Pup will always grow a coat to match the elements. its nature for it to do so

I've spent my fair share of time up in the Alps (Crans-Montana in the Valais in Switzerland)...and I can say that it gets a weeee bit chilly up there (skiing...ah, how I love skiing).  That's actually how I got involved in the BBS - I met a LSC White out there and fell in love with the temperment and structure.  Three years ago was the first time I saw her - and she has been there every year since...and every day that I was out skiing I would see her at her mountain side resteraunt, outside no matter the weather - and there were a couple of blizzards thrown in there for good luck.  In Austria - the mountain rescue dog that I know of is coated also...and I dont think that is a very warm environ either (though I have never been).

I think that perhaps we see alot of 'soft coats' because we have dogs that live inside or in more moderate conditions...the coat always struck me as something that had a great deal of environmental effect.  A dog that lives in a warmer environment probably isnt going to have a consitently thick coat because that might kill it...while a dog that lives in the cold is going to have a thicker coat.  Switch them out and in a couple of years their coat might adapt (that's my theory at least O.o)

~Cate

Cate its no theory, its true as i said 50 years of keeping Dogs outside the house, Grow a thicker coat  to those that live indoors

My Border Collie + moved over to Belgium with me, Lived outside since he was 8 weeks old

Had no kennel or pen to put him outside in so he lived in the house for ten days whist we got sorted out and built him a kennel and Run

His coat went dead and dandruff . His eyes lost there sparkle it was Early in the Feb when we moved over Snowing and very cold 

As soon as the kennel and run was completed, he was put outside, Never a bark from him. and not much more than a couple of weeks his coat came back to its normal condition and the sparkle returned to his eyes

He just could not cope with the heat or dryness in the House

Believe it or not although it was cold we turned off the Central heating in the house whist he was in there he could not stand the conditions of living indoors, so we lived in there with a coat on

He died late last year over 14 years old, a great Dog Still missed and always will be, Buried in the Rose Garden two yards from his kennel

Well Steve and TIG, sure don't take my word for what a dog needs to survive in a winter climate unassisted by humans. I've only bred Alaskan Malamutes for 38 years and studied canine survival characteristics for 30 of those  years. What the heck do I know about dogs with long, soft coats and what happens to them during a snowfall and freeze? So, ask a professional dog musher if they ever use dogs on their teams with long soft coats. The dogs come  home in the basket when they've tried it and one of the top mushers weighed his frozen dog - the ice increased his weight by 40 lbs. Ever wathc the Iditarod on TV? See any dogs with long, soft coats? Better yet ask a professional shepherd like Ulf Kinzel his opinion on how tending dogs with long, soft coats worked out for him when he was living and tending in Germany.

The standard discourages dogs with long soft coats because the standard addresses a tending dog working in Germany year round. It doesn't talk about what a Schutzhund dog or a search and rescue dog should look like - the concern is how a GSD needs to look and think to be able to tend sheep - tend, not herd. Big difference. Talk to people who have experience with dogs with long soft coats working in the same environment as they would work in the motherland. Don't compare them to pets living in the house or in a kennel, it's  not apples to apples. The Inuits  (Eskimos) killed long coated puppies, they were not allowed to breed because they knew they would die on a team during the winter. The facts are everywhere, dogs with long soft coats do not surivive in snow and ice unless thet are provided with shelter. Read some books written by the people who have actually tried to work with long,soft coated dogs during winter months. I can get   you some referecne if  you're interested in learning.

What's not to understand here? If you just think about it, it's really a  no-brainer and very simple to prove or dissprove. Take a GSD with a long soft coat to Germany during the winter and put him or her outside 24/7 with a flock of sheep assuimg my can find a large enough flock that is. Must be a few hundred sheep to be the real deal.....think HGH requirements.  Feed him but don't groom him or provide him with any shelter.  Let us know if that dog is still alive and well in the spring. If you don't want to go to Germany, then try the same thing in a state with a similar climate to that of Germany when the breed was first developed. Montana or North Dakota might work. Canda would be another option. Steve, you probably have an area in Belgium that would be suitable.

If you are keeping dogs with long soft coats inside the house or in kennels with dog houses and grooming out their burrs and matts and trimming their feet, etc,  you are nowhere near to simulating the environment the original tending GSD's had to survive in  order to be considred breed worthy. It's us humans who screw everything  up by not breeding for survival characteristics and instead selecting for cosmetic issues and personal likes and dislikes. Of course dogs with long soft coats can herd, they just can't tendt 24/7 12 months a years during a typical  German winter. The coats get wet, they don't dry, they freeze, the dog gets frost bite, can no longer end, end of dog. It ain't rocket science.

One more comment on this - keep in mind that  have said  repeatedly - dogs with LONG, SOFT coats with little or no water proof undercoat cannot survive on their own in winter climates. I also said that dogs with harsh, coarse guardhairs with thick water proof undercoats can survive.  Essentially we are talking about 2 different coats in the longcoated GSD - the one with soft, hanging guardhairs with little to no undercoat. Those are the dogs that probably would not survive on their own. Then there are the long coats with harsh, coarse guardhairs and a thick water proof undercoat. These are the dogs that would survive on their own.

Steve, keeping dogs in kennels close to the German border isn't exactly the same thing as dogs tending flocks 24/7 without any shelter at all.  That's not a fair comparison. And, yes, of course dogs raised outside in a cold climate will develop thicker coats than those raised inside. However it will not change the texture of the guardhairs or add sufficent undercoat to a dog that is not genetically programmed to have those characteristics. . The final length of the coat is genetically predetermined by modifers that tell the coat when to stop growing. They actually "turn off" the growth of the coat at a predeterminded length. Environment only controls so much, the majority of how the coat looks in an adult is in the genes.

Blitzen

How many timnes do i have to repeat myself, The German Winters are no colder than where i live

My Dog Pens are made of Steel Fencing upright rods, The floor is Concete, they have a roof over it but the  pens are open all four sides to the weather,

The Kennel is made of wood and that is what they get,

I have never been to Iceland or Alaska, So i cannot say what the weather is there but certainly a lot colder than Germany or over here in Europe

Tonight when i come back from training which will be about 11oclock the Dogs will be fed, I can look out of the kitchen window to the Pens and i  can bet 1000 Dollars both Dogs will be laying down outside on the Concrete an hour later

and they do even when the temp is down to 5-6 degs Centigrade, they spend very little time inside there kiennels. and i repeat a Dog used to living outside whatever coat it has will grow a coat to  what the climate is, its nature

If after over 50 years of keeping Dogs do you not think i would notice if a dog was suffering from the cold 

What happens over there where the eskimos live is not the same as over here in Europe a completly different ball game regards conditions and weather i do not have to go there to know that, The way they dress alone in furs will tell you of the Cold

 But Germany is not  of those conditions and nothing like them, Look on the German weather forecast if you need more proof than i am giving you

One last thing, Belgium is a very small country, you can cross it end to end in three and a half hours, over the opposite side to us the temp stays about 2 to 3 degs centigrade  higher than where i live, which is the east  north East side of Belgium.  

Steve

Steve, how many times do I need to repeat myself? You are comparing the lives of your modern dogs to those of the orginal tending dogs, the dogs for whom the standard was written. Do you really believe that a dog living in a kennel faces the same challenges as the dog that is outside tending hundreds of sheep 24/7? Those dogs are working hard enough to radiate body heat that melts the snow and then it refreezes when they are at rest. Do you work you dogs hard enough that they would do that too?

We are talking about the GSD's, the  tending dogs the original standard was written for and about.  Not dogs living outside on cement in kennels where you can see them from the kitchen window. How can anyone  understand why the breed standard asks for certain characteristics, like stockhairs, if you don't return to the roots of the breed? The standard is not written for and does not describe your dogs or my dogs sitting in sturdy kennels 24/7. It addresses dogs tending hundred of sheep acting as a living fence keeping them on the right track in the fallow fields and away from crops.  My poodle used to sleep outside in the snow too. That didn't make him a GSD.