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by Stonehaus on 08 April 2008 - 23:04
Probably had something to do with the huge add and advertisement for this kennelin the thread.
by sueincc on 09 April 2008 - 00:04
It's not that far fetched. In Germany, haven't the white shepherd enthusiasts now separated into their own breed? Same with the coats, they have their own organization in Germany. In the USA there is the Panda, apparently that's a breed now, the only difference is color. Also many other breeds are separated into varietes by color and coat types.
I have never argued that different lines don't occasionally throw a coat or a liver or a blue. If these dogs only threw DQ puppies then I would think the best thing for the breed would be not to breed those particular dogs, but not because of the occasional odd puppy.
by Sue-Ann on 09 April 2008 - 00:04
oleos93 <If you bred a blue gene carrier to a non blue gene carrier...STILL all the puppies will be blue gene carriers...even if not blue. >
If one breeds a carrier (1 gene for blue) or a blue (2 genes for blue) to a non carrier (zero genes for blue) NO pups will be blue. If it's a carrier x noncarrier 50% would be carriers. If breeding a blue to a noncarrier 100% of the pups are carriers. Both parents need to carry the blue gene to get a blue. You will also conclude this for yourself if you reflect on VKFGSD's above post. This is basic Mendelian genetics.
by VKFGSD on 09 April 2008 - 00:04
Sueincc - hoping not to start another war here but I think it is going a bit far to call the "Panda" a breed. There certainly are promoters(scam artistis, con men) who are trying to position themselves in that picture but if you look they are regularly breeding to GSDs and white GSDs. Also re the only difference being color - maybe not. There are subtle differences to the structure esp the "original" Frankie most noticeable in the head structure to make many suspect the "addition" of something in the gene pool. And before anyone crawls done my back and says wait they did DNA tests all they did was test mom and dad and frankie and said that Frankie came from mom and dad. That does not address the issue of possible interbreeding taking place someplace else in the pedigree and being carried forward.
by sueincc on 09 April 2008 - 00:04
hehehehe I'm just glad they are seperating themselves and not claiming to be breeding rare GSDs even if in name only.
by oleos93 on 09 April 2008 - 01:04
ONE MORE TIME.....LETS SEE IF THIS HELPS.
Blues and livers are both double recessive genes, which means that BOTH parents must each carry a copy of the blue or liver gene in order to produce either a blue or a liver. For the sake of keeping this as simple as possible so not to cause too much confusion, we will talk about this gene in the form of a solid blue German Shepherd and a Solid black German Shepherd. When you see a solid black GSD Icon with a blue outline, that dog is a blue carrier. A blue GSD icon is a blue; a black GSD is a black dog that does not carry the blue gene.The genetic code for a blue is dd for the word dilute since the blue gene is a dilute gene of the color black (not from the solid black pattern, but the black color that you see in a standard GSD such as black & tan saddle back or a black sable). This gene dilutes the black gene giving the dog an overall dark gray or dusty light gray where the black should be. The dilute gene also affects the pigment thus turning the black noseleather to a gray noseleather and turning the eyes to a lighter color.
The blue gene is passed from generation to generation by carriers, this is what's called a recessive gene. Both parents must carry the gene in order for there to be a blue puppy in the litter. A blue carrier bred to a non carrier can pass the blue gene to its progeny who in turn pass the blue gene on. The graph below demonstrates what happens when two carriers meet. The code for a non carrier is DD, and the code for a carrier is Dd. On the graph you'll see a black dog with a blue outline around it, this is a blue carrier. However in real life, there is no way to tell if a dog is a blue carrier unless surprise blue pups pop out or bred to a blue to see if there are any blue pups in the litter. The second graph demonstrates what happens when a blue is bred to a blue carrier. The third graphs demonstrates what happens when a blue is bred to a non carrier which as you can see results in ALL the puppies becoming blue carriers.
The graph below demonstrates what happens when a blue is bred to a blue carrier. As you can see ALL the pups are either blues or blue carriers.
by Ceph on 09 April 2008 - 02:04
Sueincc - the whites have seperated into their own breed as recognized by the FCI - the Berger Blanc Suisse...it started in Switzerland and now as far as I know it is a recognized breed seperate from the GSD in all the FCI countries.
The Panda is like some of those who breed white Shepherds in the US - trying to attain seperation but havent gotten it (and then you have the WGSD people who are trying to remove the DQ from the standard). It's not even recognized as a seperate breed by the UKC as far as I know...just ARBA.
As far as the color genetics of it. The GSD carries for the spotting gene - it's pretty obvious in the white spots carried on the chests of so many dogs. Stephanitz also mentioned piebald dogs in his book. It's quite possible for two parents to throw a Spotted GSD like the Panda pattern...just unlikley as it takes a slightly more powerful allele than most GSDs carry for. Additionally...just for poopoos - stephanitz didnt like the look of the spotted dogs because it messed with the 'look' of the structure...the dogs had the same structure but it looked different because of the spotting. That might be what you are seeing when you are looking at Franka - an optical illusion.
~Cate
by sueincc on 09 April 2008 - 02:04
I know, that's why I said what I said.
by Two Moons on 09 April 2008 - 03:04
thanks stonehaus
by sueincc on 09 April 2008 - 04:04
One things for sure, that big sign in the middle of the post is blue!
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