PEDIGREE's of WELL know GSD's that carry the blue and liver gene - Page 7

Blitz - according to every other genetics proff. I've had (and I've had close to four now at this point) - while you can decrease the odds you can't get rid of the gene entirley.  That's the position they take and the position that well known Geneticists like DP Sponenburg and other Vets who do research at VMRCVM do. It may not be dog specific - most of our research is large animal based - but the science of simply inherited genetics applies either way.

As you said the % will never be zero (unless every carrier is removed from the system) - it can become close to zero - but without knowing the heterozygotes you will always have the carrier.  And As I did say - it's very rare that the science actually follows mathematical percwentages.  How else do you explain dogs with white feet showing up in generations of solid dogs - or worse - dogs like franka showing up when the last piebald GSD I heard of was from the 20s when Stephanitz wrote his book.  I'd say that has affected the breed - or at least caused an uproar.

I imagine if we were to get a random selection population of GSDs and put them on a reserve and allow the HW equilibrium to take place, we might be srurpsied what we see pops up.

I do believe there is a DNA marker for Blue, Liver and White.  They can test for it if they do so desired.

~Cate

I think that's what I said, Ceph.

And, BTW, test mating gives you no better odds that avoiding known carriers for 5, 6 generations. In the end, it all shakes out to be damned near equal.  I've studied genetics too.

Ah - forgive me...I must have read it too quick O.o

~Cate

I think it important to realize that what Mendel did was astonishing and served as the foundation for modern genetics. However, since that time, many changes and updates have taken place. More and more information is becoming available and unless one restricts the breeding population, for example, which is not happening now even though it is smaller without long coats and colored GSDs, it will be impossible to eliminate even the most simple gene combinations that give rise to blues, livers etc. The entire discussion also fails to note that in some cases, variations in alleles also are tied to other genes having a greater frequency of expression and sometimes such other genes code for things one would not like to see in an organism, be it a dog or a human.

The bottom line is that genetics is not so simple as many would like to think it is. It is always a good idea to go back and study a subject years after studying it the first, second or third time (no reference is intended here to any poster except the first). I am in a pathophysiology course at the moment, for example, and some of the advances I have learned about in the segment on genetics are very interesting and prove my point above that much more is known now and sometimes simple Mendelian genetics do not apply. Just food for thought.......

If you breed a white x white, a blue x a blue, a liver x liver and all pups are the same colors as the parents. it's a safe assumption that basic color is the result of a simple recessive gene. If other colors appear, then it would  indicate that there is more involved than a simple recessive.

The long coat gene is a great examaple of how modifers come into play since there are many different coat lengths and textures, and absence and presence of undercoat involved. As I said in another post, some that look like long caots are DNA testing to be carriers not coats.

If it were easy to breed good dogs, more would be doing it .

Thank you VKFGSD!!  At last, a verifiable and respected source!!  That is all I ever wanted.  I have been trying to get that Willis book for a  long while now.  Every time I bid on Ebay for it, someone sneaks in there with a higher bid just at the last minute.  I may have to bite the bullet and buy it new.  Veronica

Ak First an apology. I came across sounding a bit snipey in my previous post to you. Did not mean to - it's just that the Canto /hemophilia connection is so well known in the breed I was a bit surprised at someone questioning it.  That said I applaud the fact that you questioned it and wanted a respected source.  More people need to do that and not just believe something they read on the web or a rumour they heard. So hear hear!

A  FYI just in case you did not know. Willis has two books that deal with the genetics of the GSD and while there is some overlap there are distinct differences between them. I believe the Canto discussion was part of the first book 

Willis published a second book in the 90s called "The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History". I do not remember if this reinterated the information about Canto or not but perhaps a board member who has it can let you know. Surprisingly this edition is going for much more than the earlier edition - several hundred dollars generally tho if you search the rare book and out of print book sites you can occassionally find one for less as a straight up sale not an auction. For those that have the wherewithall I highly recommend having both books.

Once again - congratulations on applying some critical reasoning skills.

Hi VKFGSD, no need for any apology, and thank you for the kind compliment.  I did enjoy reading this thread, and it illustrates the fact that I have been too lax about not getting my hands on Willis' book...now I find that I need two of them! :-)  I've been trying to get the second one, not the first one.  I believe I'll nip over to Amazon.com and get the first one, it's affordable, and read that one while I try to get ahold of the second one.  I think most of the people on this thread mean well, and are passionate about their viewpoints.  That made reading this thread worthwhile!  Veronica

Wow, VKFGSD, everything I've ever wanted to know about Canto and could never get an answer to when I asked!

Thank you! I feel like I just hit the jackpot!