any pics from the usa sieger show in san jose? - Page 3

Another thing to ponder - how many of the insufficient performances are the result of poor breeding and how many due to poor handling and/or training. A few of these dogs looked as if they were in fear of making a mistake and others looked as if they were not ready for that ring. Lack of attention to the handler and forging while heeling generally indicates a dog that is in need of more training in the OB ring. Is that also true in the protection ring?

Please view catolog# 23 Emilio. This dog was ran over by the helper lost his grip because the helper pasted the dog under his legs. The dog reattacked. The helper did the same thing. This IMO is a dog with fight. This dog is well trained and an asset to the breed. While you are looking at the helper work please look at # 11. 

To my friends that own and train these wonderful dogs, You deserve better.  

However in all this show could have been predicted on paper weeks earlier.

Mike

Oh, my god!  If some of those VA performances are TSB, I'm sure glad I don't bother to even go to these shows anymore.

I have not yet had time to watch all the protection routines that were taped and now available on the web. But many I saw were pathetic. And this comes from a person who has both show and working lines. I do not care what the bloodlines are as long as my dogs are stable temperaments, capable of working, healthy and are correct as far as the breed standard goes. I have V rated show lines and V rated working line dogs.

After 10 years or so of doing SchH, I am absolutely convinced that the problem with failing dogs in the protection routine is due to a variety of factors. The two principal ones are clearly that weak dogs are being bred by the same old sires and because it is about money, breeders with some of the high placing sires will breed to anything. Some of the high placing sires are weak dogs - period. And this goes too for some of the high placing females.

Being able to present a progeny group etc., encourages breedings to as many females as possible. One does this especially when there is a chance that at least a few of those pups produced will end up being shown in a big show and that will help build ones' reputation among people who do not know better.

If one looks at catalogues from past years, one also sees dogs who never again are shown after they reach the required age for a title. Why? Because no one ever had any intention of doing the work with them, or, like many, it is simply too difficult to get a title. That is, in itself, another story. There are not enough good clubs, there is prejudice against show lines, there are way too few helpers and many are "do it my way or the highway" types of helpers and yes, it takes a tremendous commitment from anyone (a handler) to learn enough to title a dog successfully. The deck is, in fact, stacked against anyone really wanting to do this.

The second main issue is, exactly as Blitzen indicates above. The training that most of these dogs are receiving is substandard, at best. Too many want quick titles. The handlers don't know enough to competently train and the helpers do not know how to do what it takes to teach a dog to be able to show well under pressure. That does not work at all and combine ineffective, short duration, poor training with strange fields, strange helpers, commotion etc., even dogs who might otherwise do well because they do, indeed, have the ability, will not.

But no one cares about these things Blitzen. You and I have discussed this before. Those of us who believe that there are good showlines who are capable of working and also know that there are some working line dogs who cannot work and or have poor conformation,  are few and far between. There is kennel blindness and breed blindness. There is a huge bridge, but most don't care about the gap or want to close it. And frankly, even for the few who do, we are doomed to failure for a lot of reasons. Then there is the issue of money. I get many people asking me to title their dog, but they want it done in 2 months. That is not the right way and those dogs who get quickie training like this here or abroad, do poorly. Astute observers know a well trained and strong dog when they see it. They can also often tell a good dog with poor training as well as a weak dog with decent training.

Training takes time and dedication and a commitment. Most people in this breed are not serious about that, be they show or working line enthusiasts.

I've only watched #45-#47.  Those dogs and handlers were in such disarray.  That one handler put more pressure on his dog than the helper ever did! 

If that's a VA rated according to UScA, I'll take an ugly-ass jackal working line anyday.  I'll even take a showline, just prove to me it can work well, hard, and seriously; herd; and be stable around kids, crowds, and noisy situations.  I want a true GSD, not a points dog, not a pretty Barbie dog, just a good looking GSD with good working structure with impeccable temperament, and real yet CONTROLLED aggression, lots of confidence and solid nerve, one that can live with the family as a cherished family member, one that I can take to herding, agility, and schutzhund one day and take him to a block party the next day, and if bred, one that produces the same or better.  Of course, it's gotta be healthy and should have an iron stomach!  That's a VA dog, not what was in the video and not the fabled "maneaters" that'll go up the leash if you look at them funny.

But of course, what do I know.  I just have my wacky GSD mix to give me little tastes of awesome GSD traits (and not-so-awesome ones).

I was watching the videos and while do not even remotely consider myself a helper yet (although I've been working dogs almost a year now) I would say this, what was up with the helper work?  While I realize that there are a lot of dogs uncomfortable in the "pocket" due to stick threat, after watching about half the videos, it appears NONE of the drives were what I'd call smooth or controlled.  So was this helper work, poor dogs, or a combination of the two?

Anyhow, to say I was shocked with regard to ALL of the bitework I watched would be an understatement - I've seen more intensity in club trials.  The whole thing looked sub-par to me, and this was the premier USA show-line event in country?  When one considers that once a show-line dog is titled, this ALL the bitework they ever have to do again, it is inexcusable for both the dogs and the handing to be so poor - this goes for even the "strongish" dogs who might have the correct temperament to bite, but obliviously were beaten down with compulsion to achieve the mere feet worth of heeling required.  If that is the best that US show-line breeders can do, given that they for the most part they pay others to title (or buy already titled dogs) and the ONLY exercises the dogs are evaluated on after, shame on them - they are obviously not DOING ANY WORK with these animals.  So if they can’t even work their dogs, hwo the eck can they be breeding worthy animals?  How many do you want to bet have something on their websites along the lines of "top German bloodlines to produce German Shepherd dogs that will be superior for Sport Dog, AKC, Agility, Search and Rescue, Police, International Conformation, and/or loving family protection and companionship" or similar?

-Calvin

In defence of all performance and show judges:

The judge can only judge what he sees on that particular day. He/she cannot consider any prior knowledge, prior performances, etc., ON THAT DAY.  If/when the helper's back happens to be between him/her and the dog, blocking his/her view for those few crutialseconds, or the branches of the shading trees part just long enough to let the sun in his/her eyes, or someone walks in front of him at just the wrong moment... whatever... he still can only judge what he actually saw. Happens in trials all the time, usually to our benefit, but occasionally not. With perhaps 80-100 dogs to rate in a very short period of time, (2+ times that many at the BSZS!) there's no time and it wouldn't be correct anyway to consult with the helper after each performance, and there's no "doing it over"  because he/she didn't get a good view the first time. Its not like some other sports,  horse racing for instance, where 3 stewards have time to watch the instant re-play and consult with fellow stewards for a quorum before rendering a decison. Would that they could! The protection evaluation for so many dogs might take 2 whole days if that were the case.

Sure, there are always going to be disagreements on any/every judge's call, especially at a Sieger Show, where a pot-load of money has been spent to aquire, train, promote and transport dogs, handlers, teams, etc. and dogs' whole careers are made or broken on 5 min. of performance. But IMO the ratings given are 98-99% correct and accurate most of the time. Not really a bad average unless your dog, or a dog that went on to place towards the top of the class, is one of the 2-4, out of say 80 dogs evaluated that day, that some people feel should have done better or worse.

I know I sure wouldn't want to be in the protection judge's position at such a high-emotion event as a Sieger show! Its a lot easier to criticise the person in the "hot seat" than it is to be that person. The good news is that unless this is the last event prior to retirement, we usually get another chance to see the dog again, and hopefully the dog gets another chance to demonstrate what its really made of, good, bad or otherwise.

Sometimes you eat the bear...

SS

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That was some funny stuff.  I'e seen better nerves on a smashed spider!  I would be embarrased to be a part of that.  I am not saying that all dogs were garbage.  I didn't watch all, but all the ones I watched were pathetic.  Ugly too!

How ironic that I left the V out of my post!

I watched a bit of video so far, will watch more later as time permits.  Thank you to lonewolf for posting all of these.

Amazing....... Absolutely amazing.......