2008 USA Sieger Show - Page 5

I wouldn't count on the US title being bought this year. Several of the dogs entered are very good in the work and quite well trained. Most of the owners/ handlers are very serious American, or, in one case Canadian residents who are very serious about training for performance competition.

Sure a few will not compete to the National level for any number of reasons. A lot will depend on the foundation training the entrants recieved as young dogs, wherever that may have been, and a lot will depend the dogs' strength of temperament, its inherent, genetic ability to flourish under the pressure needed to achieve the level of training necessary for a National performance event,  typically judged far more stingently than a club or regional trial, as it should be. Attention too must be paid to conditioning dogs who may be in top shape to gait 20 miles in the ring, but may need further conditioning/muscle development for speed and clearing a hurdle they may not have seen in awhile,  carefully done as to avoid injury to the dogs, while still maintaining top show condition. I'm thinking beautiful gaiting isn't going to get anybody full points in the blind search and smacking a knee into the hurdle even once could end  the dog's career...

Its no secret that most show dogs are rushed to earn the SchH3 at or near their second birthday, often just in time for the next Sieger show, well before the dogs have atttained physical and psychological maturity, and often long before it became clear the dog might achieve a high level of success in the show ring. I am sad when I think of how many potentially good young dogs are ruined forever that way every year, but heartened to know that at least some people have learned from disappointments suffered later when the price for all that pressure was paid in spades. I admit to having learned the lesson the hard way in the 90's when my promising young dog handed me a disappointing Vorhanden in Dallas, never to recover from the trauma of  "losing the fight."

The good news for everyone planning to enter the Nationals this fall is that the event is  6 mos. away. The Nov. date allows ample time for  "adjustments" to conditioning for trial exercises and improvements in performance that may or may not have been considered worthwhile when the dogs originally earned their early titles. More good news: the upcoming season offers a number of club and regional trial opportunities at which to earn qualifying scores on the first try, and/or reassessing /fine-tuning training & conditioning strategies should a trial performance be deemed, shall we say "less than optimum" first time out ...and I don't want to hear any of the self-professed "working dog people" try to tell me "good working dogs" never need more than one try to earn the 270 qualifying score for the Nationals. My old club in CA hosted several "Last Chance" trials on the final weekends before entries for Nationals closed. Those trials were always FULL of "good working dogs" and well-respected handlers that had failed  to earn qualifying scores (if not failed a few trials completely) despite numerous attempts in the preceeding months (or years!) The Bewertinsliste was long and distinquished, believe me!

SS

Molly   writes........Because, the Universal Sieger title CAN be bought - it's been proven every year in the past few at least - and it's so much easier that way!  And just as prestigious as earning it yourself (you and your dog)!  (??)  Right?

Well I know the last 2 years Alex Eisenhaus took it . As far as I know  this dog was trained  and handled to his Universal Sieger title by his owner .  year before Fabian Mittelwest was  trained and handled by T-Floyd for his Universal title  The owners of Fabian are great people however they do not  have the knowledge  in training to get their dog   to that level without help.  So if you want to point fingers to them   go ahead .   They saw that their dog is a candidate for Universal and  persued it . Bought   well I am sure they had to pay training fees and entry fees to both the Nationals and the Siegershow . I did however see the dog perform on the field in both venues   I did not see a dollar bill  on the end of the lead   I saw Fabian Mittelwest. 

You statement above is disrespectful 

Pia

I am not getting into this kind of discussion as it does not lead to anything. We are all stuck on our opinions and views, and that is that.

The only thing I want to add is to Hodie! Hodie, I always respect your views and level headed opinions. However, I am very offended with your statement that a dog who is SG 17 or V 29 in Germany is certainly not what I consider a high placement in Germany.  (direct quote from your earlier post). That is downright insulting to anybody who has shown their dogs over there. Do you have any idea how much work and financial commitment goes into that? Have you ever shown a dog at the German Sieger Show? Have you even gone as a visitor? Well, I have. And I can tell you that I was very proud of my Gina placing SG-53, which was in the first (or best) ring of the whole class. I have owned dogs which have placed SG-24 and SG-47 before, but it is nothing like seeing your own homebred dog competing. Also, any dog which places SG or V respectively and especially among the first onehundred is a top dog. People who know me know that I like both, showlines and workinglines. I also appreciate and respect performances in all events. What just gets me every time is the complaints I read and hear from people who have nothing to add than so-called good advise and lots of negative critic (and that is directed to nobody particular but if the shoe fits, please wear it). As to Dog 1 getting a handler for his Ronaldo to show him to his potential: I will be standing there cheering them on, why not!!!!! It is done in Germany all the time and nobody complaints about it there. It is a form of sport. Who do you think handled all these great Salztalblick dogs for example? The breeder and/or owner? Ha ha! There are quite a few numbers of professional handlers there. As a matter of fact, I got a few offers from a couple of them already to take my black Paska-son in (which I declined). But I do send my dogs to Germany as well. Why should they rot in my kennel? Why do I even breed? Currently, I have 3 dogs in Germany and have plans for 3 more to go by fall. Yes, it costs a fortune, but this is my hobby, period. And to anybody who thinks that a Universal Sieger title can be bought: Could you elaborate further? I am geniunely interested in how that is done? Do you try to bribe the judge? Or maybe the whole organization? No? When how do you do it?

Ok, I am done ranting.

Chris

So where do we go from here?  How do we fix this? 

Pia, we posted at the same time! Super statement!

Chris

Pia, you and your female were the last ones who achieved the Universal Seiger title legitimately.  Congratulations for that, it's something to be very proud of.  The others, not so much.

molly

OK Randy, please correct me then. Give me the names of the dogs who placed VA here in this SS and give me their placement in the BSZS this past year. You may have access to that information more quickly than I and if you can demonstrate I am wrong, I will certainly admit to that.

But, no, I do not consider SG 17 or V 29 a particularly high placement. IF and I mean IF I could afford to buy a dog who had placed high, I would first be looking at video of its work, or better in person, and I would be looking for a dog who placed in the top 10. To me, that is a high placement. After that, at least in my eye, quality rapidly falls off.

None the less, we all also know that the bite work at the BSZS has also been a huge issue and that many people are complaining and working to fix this too.

We need a SS here that touts the best dogs. That means they are, at the very least, competent workers in the protection routine. We saw with our own eyes for years now that this is simply not the case. We need more working line dogs who are sound in structure. And we need one tight and high standard for the judge to follow in judging the protection routine. Dogs are measured for height according to the rule by the JUDGE and while we are at it, let's consider how we might get more and more Americans handling the dogs who are American.

I really do NOT have an issue with others training dogs or even showing dogs for people. God knows I am too fat, to injured and too old to show my own dogs or even do a competent second handling. I will continue to train my own dogs until I cannot do so, and that may happen sooner than later. So I am not going to fault someone for finding other ways to train, in either venue. I just want to see, at the very least, competency in the dogs shown in either venue.

Pia, this whole post, as I read it, I thought of Fabian.  Glad you brought it up.

Interesting, how show line people get attacked for paying to have their dogs trained and working line people do not.

There is a place for different people in this sport. I personally will continue to title my own dogs until I physically an unable to do so. (Which should be a long, LONG time).  I love to train and I am proud to do so.

Now I certainly cannot afford to import a top ring German dog. But you know what? God bless the people that do.  Because while I am wholly unimpressed with 90% of SS bitework, the SS is where I find that very small number of quality dogs with quality work that I would be proud to use or buy from.

Someone brought up in another thread that it would be interesting if all dogs in the SS had to be H.O.T. Interesting yes, feasible, no, in fact harmful. Imagine how many great dogs we would lose out on if this were the case.

Randy is right about the quality of dogs in this country inproving. 5-10 years ago nearly all of our "top dogs" could not even break the top ring in German. Now many more of them can and do. (Bella v Mittelwest ring a bell, anyone?!) The standard for VA is not identical yet (and yes, it should be) but you're kidding yourself if you cannot admit it's on the rise.

Pia, you and your female were the last ones who achieved the Universal Seiger title legitimately.  Congratulations for that, it's something to be very proud of.  The others, not so much.

Molly , I still don't know why you would say the others did not  and if so  could you  explain ?? 

I am very proud of the achievement   Thanks . Hopeing to repeat with a son of hers in a few years :)

I look at it in a different angle if  I had a dog esspecially out of my breeding program  that could make the world level yet I could NOT bring the dog to that level  for whatever reason but wanted it for the dog I would not hesitate to turn the dog over to the hanler/trainer that could .    I would not call that a  bought ticket to the WUSV . I would call it smart mangement  of an excellent dog .

I have done this sport for the past 20 years or so , all of my first dogs had been raised trained and titled by me . You  have done it and it is extreme time consuming  and the accomplishment is the greatest  :) 

 At present I have some excellent dogs that must take the training / trialing field    Eon, Britt, Ink , Evan . I rendered Britt ( 2 years )to my friend  for training and titles , Ink ( 6 months )is planned to go to germany to my friend for her titles , Evan 1 year old I am training   Eon is my competition dog and much time goes into him  in the persueing of  at least getting a seat one year at the FCI world team. ( Well thats the goal anyway :)  Way to many young  dogs for one handler to train  and  way to good to sell  . The future of my breeding program are in those young untitled dogs  so to insure that future  I must bow down to my limitation of time and render the dogs for their titles .    Calling  them later bought titles   I guess is a personal way of looking at it.

Pia

But, no, I do not consider SG 17 or V 29 a particularly high placement. IF and I mean IF I could afford to buy a dog who had placed high, I would first be looking at video of its work, or better in person, and I would be looking for a dog who placed in the top 10. To me, that is a high placement. After that, at least in my eye, quality rapidly falls off.

Well Hodie, I rest my case then. Looking forward to a dog owned or bred by you (what is your kennel name ? Schwarzenberg?) to be in the top 10 in Germany. Also, if you think that quality falls off rapidly after the first 10 dogs, which dogs do you breed to? Hopefully, only high quality! That is what a breeding program is all about, isn't it? Wow, speaking about genetic diversity!

Chris