GREAT NEWS! DNA Test for Degenerative Myelopathy - Page 11

Mystere: Give what has been posted about Dr. Clemmon's position, does that even matter anymore?
 

Nia,

Are you referring to this post by flygirl55?

In my discussions with Dr Clemmons, he has told me that If carriers are detected and the incidence is 75% of the breed while only 2% get the disease, there is no way to eliminate the disease from the DM Flash test or the gene test alone. You would have to remove between 25 and 75% of the dogs; to prevent 2% from getting the disease.

In order to get an accurate "accounting" of what the real numbers are, with the technology in plan we have currently, we have to get 100% of the dogs tested to be able to map the incidences. That's where the problem lies.

However, Dr. Clemmons' hypothethical figure of 75% of the genepool's being being of carrier status does not appear to be borne out in the early result of the the OFA's DNA testing program for DM. IOW, as more hard data is collected, Clemmons may not turn out to be the savior of DM.

More importantly, according to the OFA, the dog homozygous N/N can only transmit the normal gene to its offspring, and it is unlikely that this dog or its offspring will ever develop DM.

--- > A week or so ago they removed the results of the Falsh test from their website.  Marjorie is trying to find out why that was done.

I am sure it is politics, pure and simple.

Louise, if you prefer to use the dna test not developed for German Shepherds, thats your choice. However, personally, I would hate to see the future of DM of the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG in Dr Coates hands. She unabashedly botched her work with German Shepherds, when she studied them and was funded by the AKC-CHF and the AM GSD Charitable Foundation! I believe over $50,000 was flushed down the toilet in that fiasco! I had to scream to have a 2 yr old Dobie removed from the study group, which according to the dogs owner, was dx'd by Dr Coates by turning its foot back!!!! Is this REALLY the hands in which you want DM research held? Lordy- this is the same person who tried to pressure mat test DM dogs!!! How the hell  can one pressure mat test a dog that cant walk?????????? One CANT, so thosedogs also had to be removed from the study! sheesh!  It really saddens me that people buy into the AKC-CHF good ole' boys club of researchers. There were 24 dogs in the original study- 3 were correctly dx with DM by Dr Coates. I dont know about you- I find that pathetic. As the owner of another DM dog,  I want research to be done by a qualified person with a good track record.

I do not trust the AKC-CHF- when they have officers who award grants to researchers who work underneath them, at their own universities- that just doesnt sit well with me! Its like letting a family member win a contest you are running. Oh well- whatever floats your boat... I find it sad for the future of the breed, though....JMHO, of course, but who the hell am I....

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org --> The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database)
Please utilize this registry to ensure a healthy future for our breed!
Be PROACTIVE!
 http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group

I think what I will do is after the tests are done thru the OFA dna program, of the 5 dogs I have tested those  that test positive (lets hope none) I will have those flash tested by Dr. Clemmons.  

Perhaps that would give us a fair comparison IF the OFA DNA test is good or bad?  

Has anyone done this or done both tests to compare the outcomes?

I dont think any test has a 100% accuracy. I know the Flash test has a 96% sensitivity and 99% specificity. I dont know the sensitivity and specificity of the gene test or if they even released those figures. No test is 100%, for sure! Our test is broader and may look at things they do not. Even so, their test and ours may look at different aspects of the disease. Even if they looked at the same thing, there will be some differences.

I know they are are currently trying to get funding to do the testing which we did in the beginning to see the significance of the test in the general population compared to those with the disease. It would be nice to go forward with DM research, instead of going backwards or sideways, which the AKC-CHF seems to love to do. The clock is ticking for Missie T, and I find their politics to be heinous :(

Another problem I can see, with the use of the Gene Test, is that if it does yield a different result than the DM Flash Test, it still does not mean the Flash Test is wrong, as far as the dog having DM. For example-If a dog is negative on the Flash Test, and positive on the Gene test, the Gene test still doesn't mean the dog has DM. People do not seem to understand this- the gene test cannot say which dog has or does not have DM. It cannot predict which dog that has the gene will get DM- It can only potentially let you know if the dog has the gene or does not have the gene. The dog may have the gene, but not have DM, even if it is displaying DM symptoms! There are so many conditions that present in the same manner, so one has to remember that while the Flash test is a great diagnostic tool, the Gene test is not! The DM Flash Test has been shown to be quite accurate in accessing DM in symptomatic dogs, but the same is not true of the Gene Test. It sure gets confusing, doesnt it! :(

One last comment. Both are DNA tests. The gene test looks (supposedly) at SOD1 only. We may be looking at additional areas as well when running the DM Flash test. No one knows for sure which DNA regions (since it is probably more than one) are the most critical in developing DM.

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org --> The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database)
Please utilize this registry to ensure a healthy future for our breed!
Be PROACTIVE!
 http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group

The results are back for the five dogs listed above which were tested.

And I believe we can be confident that this OFA dna test is accurate as I had mentioned I would test Stella vom Trompetersprung which has clearly DM and her test result came back with AT RISK and she was not offered a certification form from the OFA.    All others received the purple certification  from the OFA.  

Eiko von Santamar                    NORMAL

Uschi vom Klebinger Schloß       NORMAL  

NORMAL N/N this dog is homozygous N/N with two copies of the gen.  In the seven breeds studied at the university of Missouri in depth so far,  dogs with test results of N/N (normal) have never been confirmed to have DM.   this dog can only transmit the normal gene to its offspring, and its unlikely this dog will ever develop DM, and it is unlikely  that this dog or its offspring will ever develop DM.

Lana vom Klebinger Schloß     CARRIER   A/N

Bonita vom Kerschberger         CARRIER   A/A

This dog is heterozygous A/N, with ONE mutated copy of the gen and ONE normal copy of the gen, and is classified as a carrier.   In the seven breeds studied at the University of MO in depth sofar, dogs with test results of A//N have NEVER been confirmed to have DM:  While it is highly UNlikely this dog will ever develop DM, this dog can transmit either the normal gene or the mutated gene to its offspring.

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What I would like to see that owners who have dogs with DM to have them tested to confirm  the accuracy.  It would help all of us in our breeding decisions.   I did have a buyer contact me already with regards the upcoming litter of Eiko x Lana as she has an 8 yr old dog who was tested positive, and has severe signs of DM and she of course doesn't want to go throught it ever again.  

And I will write the ofa to ask to drop their price so more breeders will be testing their breeding stock.  At least let us get the at risk dogs out of our breeding programs.   From now on I also recommend that any of you who are now aware to not buy a dog for your breeding program without having it tested.  Don't be cheap and pay for it.  AND, be clever and have the dog taken to a vet of your choice, have it identified through microchip or tattoo, and have the vet do the test.  again, don't be cheap look at the bigger picture.   Never again will I buy a dog on impulse again for my breeding program now I know this.  Also, have them RE X rayed, as Stella did not just have DM, she also has Spondylosis which IS painful, though it doesn't stop her for now.   She is already walking crooked. 

Eiko is offered at stud to hip/elbow clear approved females for breeding.   I don't like outside breedings as they are hardly worth the time and effort, but he has not only a stunning  pedigree and superb character  to offer, now he has t

ok what is it with this cutting us of OLI!!!! i had written a tjit load of info and where the hell is it?  I dont have all that much time nor patience + not a great typist,  and am only doing it as this is very important to all of us reading this.   AT LEAST WARN US IF WE#RE OVER THE MAX AMOUNT OF LETTERs.  

here is the certification for Uschi as an example.   If forgot what else I wrote, but as to Eiko now he has more to offer other than VA7 Ghandi as his sire and even better V7 Trixi vom Klebinger Schloß as his dam, he is also normal for DM, titled and breedsurveyed.   I guess i will get his semen frozen asap just in case. 

http://kerschberger.com/EikoSantamar.htm  

Let us keep up the good work!

Congratulations Kerschberger on the acquisition of this fine young GSD.  Very good news that he is not a carrier of the DM gene. 

http://kerschberger.com/HealthDM.htm  I have had this page up for sometime and it will be expanded over time no doubt.

I am going to test  the remaining dogs at the rate of one a month next, but with the former five I was more in a hurry.  Might I suggest to all of those/us who have dogs who test AT RISK to immediately spay or neuter them, especially if you are a breeder or intend to breed your dog 'just once' as I hear so often and to test the dog(s) prior to breeding them.    And as long as the dog is two yrs or older and fully grown, of course.   I don't believe in early spaying or neutering (or at all)

If we just for starters can delete those AT RISK dogs from the genetic pool, thusfar the stats are at 20%-ish AT RISK which is 1/5th of the breeding dogs, which is really not bad, but also not good since we're only at the beginning of the results, as we have 40,ooo GSD pups registered annually in the USA (is that nuts or what) and then only breed NORMAL TO NORMAL OR NORMAL TO CARRIER and NOT CARRIER TO CARRIER  I guess breeding carrier to carrier is asking for trouble... 

I could be wrong, but I think you will find some people resistant to culling their potential breeding stock just because the test says they are at risk.  First, the test hasn't been around long enough for most people to put a lot of stock in it... some still don't even care about x-raying hips.  Second, there are likely other genes that determine when/how likely the dog will actually get DM in it's life even though it has the genes this tests for. 

What I propose is that IF the breeder feels the "at risk" dog is one of the best they have to offer the breed in every other way, then they make SURE they breed to a cleared normal dog.  This way they know all of the offspring are carriers, can make sure all pups they don't keep back go into pet homes and not breeding homes, and in the following generations they can work on eliminating the gene by continually testing and breeding to cleared normal individuals.  Now that we actually know the genetic make-up, we don't HAVE TO cull all the affected dogs, we just have to be responsible in our decisions to gradually decrease the gene in the population. 

BTW, before someone says I'm suggesting this theory to validate myself breeding dogs "at risk"... all my dogs are cleared normal.  However other breeders who may feel like their world would crumble down if they found out their dog was "at risk" and shouldn't be breed, and thus would rather not do the test, still have other options.