Breed Standard re. gait - Page 6

Hi Sam, I do so agree that the ligaments and muscles play a very big role in the way dogs move. I love watching dogs move, all breeds. Some are so unique, the English Bulldog for example. How can anyone not love that breed?

The people I know who did the measuring did it at that breed's annual national specialty.  The committee kept records for several years, averaged out the results, and posted them to the membership. This was a freighting breed needing moderate angulation, the average shoulder layback was 25 degrees.  I would think the GSD would be closer to 30, 35 degrees, but that's just a guess. We will never know unless someone takes the incentive to do it. 

I understand that the GSDCA is working on a revision of the breed standard, or maybe just a new presentation of the breed standard to the membership. I have no idea of how they are going about this. Video and photos of recent Excellent Select dogs would be interesting, if the handlers/owners could be persuaded to abandon the extreme stack pose. You know what I mean, the stretched pose with the far hock flat on the ground. Some of the GSDCA people do show German dogs, so it wouldn't be all American showlines. Or UScA could do such a thing if folks could get interested enough in conformation.

I would love it if the SV decided to produce such a video with accompanying literature. Ideally the subject group would be taken from both the Sieger shows and the schutzhund shows, IOW, both high lines and working lines.

Of course, the politics involved would be fearsome for either organization. All the breeders quite naturally think their own dogs are best. So although breed parent clubs are ideally positioned to do such a thing because of their easy access to the best dogs, perhaps a school of veterinary medicine or some such organization would be better at avoiding at least some of the politics and coming up with a relatively unbiased production. It would be difficult for an individual to gain access to enough of the top dogs to make it worthwhile, I think.

I think the GSDCA is currently revising their Illustrated Standard. If you look at it, it's easy to see that "ideal" GSD pictured there bears little resemblance to the American dogs in the ring today. I've always felt the sketches looked more like the imports before the roachy toplines came into vogue.  That would seem to make sense since the Am lines go back to the imports and I think that the IS was generated years ago before the overangulated rears and sloping toplines became so popular.  The GSDCA does not have the power  to revise the AKC Breed Standard. That must be voted on and approved by a majority of their membership. As fas as AKC is concerned, member clubs can do whatever they want with their Illustrated Standards.

I think it's sad that there is a move to change the IS to fit the dogs rather than breed the dogs to fit the IS; it's the way the AKC dog world functions and it's all about what is winning it the ring.  The IS is what most AKC judges look at when trying to envision the ideal GSD.  In many ways it is as important as or more so that the Breed Standard. Ironically, if they do revise the IS and the more moderate AKC dog comes back into style, they will need to change it back . No wonder some of those breeders condemned Dallas; I guess he was a threat to the extreme style they love so well.

I suspect if the SV would attempt to generate an IS they would find themselves behind the 8 ball trying to justify the roachy toplines, short legs, short heavy muzzles, overdone body types,  and the unsound movement seen in a number of their top winners. Since the  SV standard is clear about all these things and IMO these dogs are nothing like the standard says they should be, I guess they would first need to revise that to allow for the current style and then generate an IS.  This time the chicken would have to come before the egg. It would be hard to justify a roachy topline in an IS when the standard calls for a straight back.  On the other hand, a sketch of a GSD with a straight back (for example) is not going to match up to the dogs currently winning here and in Germany. Decisions, decisions.........Somehow I don't see the SV as being dumb enough to go for an IS.

I don't recall off the top of my head who is on the committee to revise the IS from the GSDCA, but I am sure that since humans are involved it will be contentious. (I had my fill of committees in the corporate world and have low expectations of them.)  I agree that the current IS looks a lot like a working dog. I think the model was the old Rocky Reach and Longworth type of dog which looked a lot like the current German working lines. If the IS is too far off the breed standard, I predict there will be trouble. The current GSDCA breed standard isn't that different from the FCI standard and doesn't, at least to my reading, specify a ski slope topline and extreme rear angulation. The most recent Grand Victor is in fact not an extreme dog, although he is American in looks. I saw him in person. American breeders can breed to the standard if they have the intestinal fortitude to do it.

Perhaps it was mischievous of me to want to see the SV attempt a video IS.  Some of the recent siegers have been rather far off the mark too.

Most breeders in any country will breed to whatever real or imagined standard wins in the show ring. Unfortunately, that's just a fact of life. People want to produce a champion, buy a champion or buy a puppy from champion parents. That championship can be expressed as CH, VA, V, etc or performance titles SchHx, FH, etc. depending on the interest of the buyer. To my mind, the real key to returning to the GSD standard are the judges. If they aren't aware that the GSD should be able to tend all day and aren't aware of the physical structure it takes to do this, then the show ring will remain far from the standard.

Despite my low opinion of committee driven IS's, I'd still like to see a study done of the actual angles and movement of the best GSDs worldwide. Nobody has ever done this to my knowledge. I suppose Linda Shaw comes the closest and she is revising her illustrations but I have no idea of her methodology.

Good post, Sam, I think we are on the same page. I surely do agree that the FCI breed standard really doesn't vary that much from the AKC one.  I hope the GSDCA leaves the IS as is, but I doubt that will happen. Sad....

I never saw any of the Rocky Reach or Longworth dogs in the flesh, only on photos. My exposure to the AKC dogs came around the time that Manhattan was setting breed records. Boy, did I ever love that dog. Not that he was a perfect specimen, he just oozed personality and I think even the staunchest dog hater would have fallen in love with the breed just by looking at Hatter.  He'd look at the judge, smile, wag his tail,  and ask for that BOB ribbon .  At that time I was showing another working breed (this was before the herding group split) and I always ran to the GSD ring to watch the judging knowing one day I would be a GSD owner.

I never saw Hatter in person, only pictures, but his personality came through even in photographs. He didn't make much of an impact on the breed as a stud, but he made a huge impact in publicity. He was a great ambassador for the breed.  I'm not quite old enough to have seen Lloyd Brackett's dogs in person, only in photographs. I sure do wish there had been digital video back then.

You’re plain tedious, Preston - put it on tape!

I should have realised that "Martin" rubbish etc was somehow connected to your constant Videx toadying! Isn’t (or was?) Marti Cotter, the Irish gent, (if still among the living, he must be way into his eighties!) an archenemy of David Payne? (You’re obviously in direct contact/cahoots with Payne.) Only one thing intrigues: I know what motivates many of his individual supporters (and the levers he holds over others), but what makes you one of his most rabid lackeys!?

My dogs and private affairs are none of your business, and certainly none of Payne’s.

Stop wasting my time.

After last bit of nonsense I hadn’t intended returning here, but as the subject is of interest …

I agree with much of what you say, Blitzen, particularly concerning roach and sloping backlines, over-angulated rears, various other mentioned faults, and the importance of firm ligaments. There’s no mystery though regarding dog construction relative to movement. In fact, for the GSD in particular, it’s been analyzed to death! And watching videos of good-moving dogs is fine, but in the end it’s only by analyzing individual components, and how they blend into a harmonious whole, that we’re able to arrive at useful conclusions or actually know what to look for.

The only way to examine structure is through function. Our dog isn’t asked to be especially nimble like some other trotting breeds, merely a tireless trotter able to cover maximum ground with least effort. And comparing it to a system of levers and pulleys, with the back as a strut connecting rear and front assemblies, is by far the most useful. For good balance, the ratio of bone lengths of the front and rear need to be even; whilst overall proportions are largely determined by height at wither to length, together with depth of chest to leg length. Reach and drive should be equally effective, and a dog of moderate overall construction will mostly outperform one with just a good rear or good front.

The forequarter’s shoulder blade should be well laid back (45 degrees or better) to allow for maximum arc of movement; withers should be high enabling tight muscling over the shoulder blades; angle between a good-length upper arm (the longer the better) and shoulder blade should approach 90 degrees; foreleg length should tally at least 55 percent of wither height (unduly deep chests restrict reach and cause fatigue); and, pasterns should be of good medium length, as ideally set at 15 to 20 degrees.

The chest should offer good support to elbows, neither too narrow or shallow; rib cage well-ribbed (affects stance); the back, including the ‘coupling’ from shoulder blade to pelvis, should be firm: too long or too short results in loss of drive through bounce or restricted rear movement, undue roaching harms power transmission also.

The croup should be of good length and merge with back in a smooth, gentle line; upper and lower thigh are ideally of similar length, with angles mirroring forequarters (in natural stance); hocks should be tight and firm, and not too long.

Ah well, just a few thoughts.

After much scuffling, 2 wasted afternoons, 6 traumatized dogs, but mostly 1 traumatized owner, & 1 husband who has a new hernia from laughing at me; this was the best of all the pictures I could get of the hock lifted not quite up the the point of the pelvis,(I hope!). Okay--go for it! 13 week old female DDR/Czech x West German puppy. Slightly blurry, lighting not the greatest.....(floor needs mopping).....jackie harris

Speak, you have confirmed my suspicions.  I now believe you have no GSDs of merit, never had and are only jealous of those who have had or now have. You act like a rather nasty little lad when confronted.  You cannot take the scrutiny you dish out.  There is a name for it and it is called hypocrisy.  It's easy for you to attack others personally about what GSDs they have, but you insist on doing it anonymously so the same magnifying glass cannot be applied to your dog endeavors.  If such matters are so private why do you insist on treating others as you do on this board.