bitework problem - Page 2

hello -- gee i was just following along .. some have given some good advice and direction such as wolfgang [ very very good training thoughts ] and mobjack ...BUT just WAIT ONE MINUTE !! figuratively speaking ... what in the world do you mean that one said the dog is smart and realizes the stick causes [ is associated with pain ??} .. oh my dear lord !! the dog is correct if this is defense or protecting behavior -- if one ever hurt my dog with a stick hit as a from / methodology of training .. i would have him bite more than just the stick !! we use a bamboo baton in ring .. dog is stick hit -- a lot more than that flimsy pliable schutzhund tool that i wouldn't even call a stick ... and you say the dog is associating pain . !! even with bamboo the dog should be treated with diligence and comfort !! please excuse me if i am not clear on something here ... without being political , and i have trained enough dogs high in aggression and extreme high in hardness .. but who in the world is your decoy ?? first if he couldn't pick this up after the first response then .. goodbye ... and two ... after the dog has recieved pain in this methodology .. goodbye....even the hardest highest aggression dog does not deserve to think / feel associate working and pain .. that stick appears .. no wonder the response is the same with other helpers .. you got a problem here .. a suggestion .. more i reiterate .. keep the stick out of training for a while .. ?? up to the dog how long ... let the dog realize then and be comfortable that he is not going to feel pain or have to get defensive !! take the stick and cjhange the dog's outlook about it as i have previously suggested .. it has to decide for itself that he is safe , that the stick means fun and that it means nothing significant -- please try to stick condition your dog yourself first .. as i previously sufggested with positve reinforcement while beiong touched .. fee your dog and stroke your dog with it .. you can progress at the dogs pace to taps ..ooving taps then a later with a little more itensity .. always carry the stick on your walks .. teach the dog also to not pay attention to it , ie get you dog focused on something else / better for him . then a later stage would be to let other people touch him with the stick with positive reinforcement .. you want the dog's picture to be that when someone uses the stick on him nice things jappen like getting fed or getting it's toy , or evenj gets to bite it's favorite tug .. depends on the dog .. i would not personally have the dog bite the sleeve yet even if it gets the sleeve slipped and no stck bite .. others may disagree but i think when you reach the stress threshold and go beyond the dog will fall back on what has been sucsessful previuosly . ie bite the stick that hurts ,- again imy personal response is that you must have the DOG ITSELF change its view of the stick hit in it's head /outlook . you must have the dog decide itself to want to get the stick hit !! once the pout ook is changed by the dog itself then i would you might follow the good advice of wolfgang in progress slowly .my apologies for pehaps not enunciating fluently but i think you gain my concepts -- ALPHAPUP

i re -read my response .. sorry for the typos -- i am trying to say no bite work with the sleeve now with stick in hand even if the sleeve is slipped !!.. for now you can have him bite the sleeve but with no stick in the helper's hand .. i am trying to say change the dog's outlook about the stick first then progress with wolggang's ideas about using the stick and slipping the sleeve fast etc etc.

ALPHAPUP - I don't think the dog was really in pain - it is mostly his inability to translate correctly to English for me that leads to such statements. I typed immediately after I spoke to him, and almost typed verbatim. He is a kind soul - would never hurt dogs. I do understand your concern and concepts clearly. Thanks for your valuable suggestions. Wolfgang, you definitely are a great source of information. I might have to pick your brains again in future.

ok howdedo -- but just remember something is drawing your dog to the stick hand .. he goes there for a reason .. -- he could just have been overly threatened / overly defensed / taught to key the man not the sleeve ... quick thought .. perhaps he was hurt inadvertantly once .. and that is just enough for the dog to act defensive .. .. and then again if the stick is held up high .. then WHY is not the dog biting the sleeve , a prey object rather than seeing the decoy as threat/ adversy , and going for the throat of the man , -- why is he keyed on the decoy !! [ that is part of defensive training / personal protection /police not sport ..]. so i would like to expect that if the stick is out of reach .. the next prey object should be the dog's target .. the one that the dog can WIN the GAME on. something still seems amiss to me here ..

Alphapup, you make a lot of sense. I agree - there is a missing link. I am going to Germany soon anyways - will check myself. Language and distance is proving to be a barrier. This dog is supposed to live in the house with me - and I can't have one that is people aggressive.

Alpha, You have all the answers for what a dog does or does not do or think? Your saying that this dog is looking at the stick as prey? I think thats nonsense, the dog was more likely then not put with a helper that either rushed things to quickly, the helper was to hard on the dog with the stick and maybe hurt him,If you have a dog that is looking at the stick as prey and the helper is wearing a sleeve which the dog comes off the bite to go after it should be safe to assume the dog would be more defense as opposed to prey no? The dog is going to come off the bite of a 200lb pound man wearing a sleeve which most dogs a crazy over to bite the stick? Tell me again what the dog is thinking.....lol.

...maybe next time the dog bites the stick, have the heavy-handed helper whack him with the sleeve a couple times...a little reverse psychology, lol

well.......lol..