American Bred GSD Hatemail... - Page 1

Rather than tack this on to an existing thread, I figured I'd lug out the trusty ol' soapbox (and a flak vest) and see what happens.

The debate over the Am. vs Ger. GSD has reached almost biblical proportions as of late. People are fighting over Vom Stephanitz's words with the same fervor that is seen when people are arguing the "true" (and I use quotation marks because everyone will argue that their interpretation is the one and only right one) meaning of passages in the bible.

Let's take a step back and look at the standard. It lists what a GSD should, and should not be. But it doesn't specify a maximum in the degrees thereof. Yes, a long flowing gait is ideal, but the standard doesn't specifically say how much reach is too much. If one group choses to interpret the standard to mean "maximum distance covered per stride" and another group choses to interpret it "maximum distance per stride, assuming proper function over form" so be it.

There is no maximum stated. Now, since Captain Von Stephanitz is not around to be asked personally, we have no idea what exactly he would say when faced with an American GSD, a showline German GSD, and a workingline German GSD. Each person assumes he'd like the GSD-type that they favor. Obviously. No one would breed dogs that they thought were ugly. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Are all American bred dogs trash? No.

All are German bred dogs inherently the superior strain? Again, no.

And different bloodlines within each type have their own strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately it all revolves around what the breeder's goal for his / her lines are.

I know many breeders who started with American lines, only to meet a German line dog, and make the switch to that type. Of course, none of these breeders will admit to that *grins* and I'm not going to dime anyone out. I will admit though that up till I met a German GSD, I didn't have much fondness for the breed. My exposure to GSDs had been limited to the American variety, and while I had met some nice dogs (temperament-wise) the majority of my encounteres had placed me with skittish or overly aggressive animals. I concluded that German Shepherds were for the most part no bueno. But then again I had to remember the first show dogs I ever knew: collies. I was fortunate enough to grow up into dogs under a mentor who was both a breeder and AKC judge for the herding group. She believed in form and function, and would chose a dog that could work over one that could not. Her collies remained one of the few lines of show collies that were still capable of being competant herders. I could always ask her questions, she had over 30 years of dog experience and had seen the breeds change a lot in that time. She passed away a few years back, but not before I had discovered German GSDs. I showed her some of my dogs, and she gave me her honest opinions of them.

Though an AKC judge, she didn't believe in standard extremes like some of her peers.

"It's the interpretation for extremism," she was quick to remind me, "that can ruin any breed."

I am getting sick and tired of American GSD bashing on this site. Okay, yes, most of the people here are Schutzhund folk, or at least "working dog" enthusiasts, and the vast majority prefer the German GSD to the American type. Okay. Fine. But to say that all American dogs are worthless implies a certain level of breed-blindness that is not entirely dissimilar to the kennel-blindness that afflicts individual breeders. Of course we think our dogs own dogs are best. After several generations many people start breeding (sub-consciously or not) to what their individual preferences are... while arguably keeping in standard.

A person who prefers large head and bone will keep the big-head puppy back to breed with. Someone e

A person who prefers large head and bone will keep the big-head puppy back to breed with. Someone else who prefers drive will hold back the most intense pup. If they maintain the same breeding program based on their foundation stock, soon they'll have their own lines with subtle, but existant, characteristics that they feel best fits the standard of the GSD breed.

We all hear about "bettering the breed." What does that mean exactly?

It's not possible to "better" the breed, like some might say. Rare is the dog that is better than it's forebearers. And "better" in what way? Isn't that -- once again -- a matter of interpretation based on individual values? Even judges hold their own opinions as to what is best based on their interpretations of the standard. We might not like to look at it that way, but aesthetics and hubris play a huge part in the evolution of any dog breed.

The standard becomes a guideline, rather than an absolute. Dogs, unlike machines, cannot be built to perfect specs, and cannot be evaluated on sheer efficiency of function.

More, the goal of any breeder is to promote and maintain traits they see as desirable and admirable. Each breeder will have his or her own ideas as to what that is.

Do I like to see the over-angualtion in the American bred GSD? Not if it increases health risks and decreases the dog's ability to move comfortably and easily. But by the same idea I don't like to see the scrunched up butt-end and roach-back in a German bred dog.

Let's face it: No One Is Going To Agree on the Ideal German Shepherd! Show, working... Nobody!

Unless someone builds a time machine and goes back to the breed's inception there's no way to truly know what the ideal dog is, other than versatile; which I think is the one unifying characteristic within all GSD enthusiasts. They want a dog that can do it all. And depending on what they define as "all", one could make an arguement that a Therapy-Certified Am. GSD is no less versatile than a SchH trained German GSD.

Instead of having "ban this type" posts, let's just accept that the type is different, and we may love or loath it, but including both types is crucial in maintaining lineage of the breed as per the database until such a time as the Am. GSD and the German GSD are recognized internationally as two different things.

I don't hate the American German shepherd. I'm not racists... er... breedist. My opinions are probably quite well stated at this point. I've seen good and bad in every type. I breed for functional form and working ability. That is my passion. Aesthetics is second to me. Not everyone feels the same, and some people would argue I have no sense of style. So be it. If I can have a sound dog that works well, and ideally looks good while he's doing it, I've achieved my objective with the breed, and I've got my "ideal" GSD.

Well said. Cant wait to see the responce. I have changed my views of am. lines thanks to you.

Sometimes I think that folks just like having something to take sides over.  I see the Working Shepherd folk and the German Show line people taking sides... to say nothing about the American Show lines.  I've owned a number of shepherds... two of the best..Lee, who was 1/2 German ( Sired by Elder John Henkle's ole man Hussan V.Wilhendorf) and 1/2 American daughter of two Select/ROM parents.  Lee  (Hussan's Sweet Audrina) was a joy... friendly with anyone I introduced her to, but on guard when it came to strangers, beautiful fluid moving...  Kind of makes me wish that the two sides could meet more often...   the second was my first registered Shepherd,  Sundown Over Shilo, CD who did Obedience, tracking, Personal Protection, Dog Sledding, Therapy... could go anywhere, meet anyone with no caution of "going off" at the wrong moment. 100% a joy in every aspect of life... and while he was from dogs bred in the US... errrr he was an (OMG!!)  White German Shepherd...  

My point being that a GOOD German Shepherd should be a dog that can take on any role you ask of it.  Rather than each aspect drawing back to their corner of Shepherdom and breeding ONLY for dogs that meet that one need... too bad folks can't work to produce Working Shepherds with sound minds and bodies, who also have the correct fluid movement of the breed show lines.  WORKING shouldn't just mean doing the attack portion of Schutzhund... there's herding, Obedience, Tracking, Agility and being easy companions in all situations.  Rather than attack Shepherd lovers who embrace a different aspect of the sport... breed for dogs who truely can do it all.

I think the problem here is not with the various type's but more a human problem.

Some people just don't have what it take's.

What else is new?   

It's a shame there are not standard's for human's....LOL

Anyway, I agree, too much bashing.

I haven't met anyone yet that trains the "attack" portion better known as "protection" and not do OB. How the hell would you control a dog with no OB? So trying to portray working line people as some kind of nutcase dog owner, with vicious hounds is rather ignorant.

I have owned a few AM bred dogs and a few that I have to guess as to their backgrounds, like jc, once you experience a "real GSD" you can't be satisfied with the ASS. I kind of feel that way about the WGH dogs too. I know there are some that are still intense and work like a working line but I don't have the patience to look for that one in a thousand. Someday I may change my mind and lean away from the working line, when I am old and too frail to be yanked around by a young rambunctious pup, but even my WGH pup was the biggest GSD I have ever owned weighing in at 90lbs at 9 months if age. (not really a easy dog to handle) There are working lines that are mellow and their are show lines that can work. For now I'm all about what fits me best and what I think represents the breed best, and IMO that is the working line dog. I'll never rescue another ASS, I now understand why they were dumped on the side of the road or into the pound or GSD rescue. I have been around all the types and know which ones fit me best. By refusing to purchase a ASS I am making my statement to breeders (which I am sure goes unnoticed). Always another sucker around the bend. All I can do is not buy them and not breed them.

Just saw an add today...Lost Dog Reward. ASS bolted out of his collar and tags, frightened by something on his walk. Hasn't been seen since. Can't say that was a shocker! The ASS I had made OK pets but I don't believe that the breed was created to be a pet that needs extra attention to cope with real life. I like my dogs that help me cope, not the other way around.

I know Louise started out in American dogs, she has said as much openly on the board and also her reasons for leaving those lines behind for the WGH she now loves and trains, titles, endorses. Now there is a lady with some German Showlines I would take home.

JC.CARROLL   THUMBS UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

I must give credit to my late American Showline GS.   He had to be put to sleep at 10yrs young a few months back.  He made me love GS's, when my son was 3 and Hawk was 16 weeks we fell in love.   Hawk and my son were playing fetch together, well we bought him.  When my son was 4 1/2, I awoke one night to a loud banging noise, Hawk was trying to get into my son's room who had come down with Croup, a high fever and Asthma.   My son so sick that only Hawk could hear his cries for help, and Hawk saved my son.

Hawk became my daycare police dog, he let me know if the kids were sneaking candy during nap time, and he was more than willing to help with pacifiers.  And he helped kids who were afraid of dogs to get over those fears.

He could turn door knobs, open drawers, and go and hide while I hid treats for him to find.   He also kept me safe when my husband was gone out to sea for 6months at a time in the NAVY,

Yeah, he was too tall, his tail was too short and his ears looked like planters, but how can you put a price on a dogs heart and gift of love?

Susan

j.c. Nice post, I think we are on the same page!                                                                                                                                      Mystere  the AKC has a standard for the GSD, it just does not require they have a title to be bred. They also do not require the dogs h/e done. I am not per se from the American bred community but I think there are GSD's in the Am. showlines that do have AKC obedience titles on them, it is kind of hard to research such though. I also don't know if the majority are not capable of  "breed worthiness test" as you put it because I don't believe many try. Probably for various reasons, such as not interested (believe it or not, some people still do not even know what schutzhund, breed surveys etc. are), finding a club in a reasonable traveling distance is not feasable, finding a club that will accept them and try to work with what they have and love almost non -existent, finding the time which is hard for even the most dedicated of the sport people, hearing all the negativity, liking what their dog looks like and thats all they care about. To each their own....