The Beauceron from Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 08 - Page 10

These comments would be funny if they were not so sad. Here you have a video clip, maybe 15 seconds worth to compare against a LIFETIME, and some of you seem comfortable making all these grand pronouncements about how not only this one dog, but the whole BREED is eaten up with nerves. It boggles the mind, how much one can glean from a few feet of tape.

Nevermind that this dog *has* passed a breed specific temperament test at a national show, put on BY THE FRENCH. Did you forget that while you were slamming this dog, oh DogTrainer? Or were you simply not aware? Nevermind that some of the respondents have actually seen the dog in the flesh, and have a different perspective; their comments have gone largely overlooked. I am amused at so many who seem comfortable making snap judgments about such things and seem to feel that this judgment stands as more relevant than those with far more actual hands-on experience with the dog in question. Why is this?

I also am amused that no one, not ONE person out of all the people who supposedly watched that video, bothered to comment on the demeanor of the JUDGE that the dog was reacting to. It is more than just the fact that his hands were shaking; he is *rough* in his exam and always has been. Let us also remember that not only Arco, but several *other* dogs reacted poorly to Saltzman's manhandling. Specifically, he came very close to being *bitten* by the Old English Sheepdog. Other very experienced dogs were clearly nervous. Many have commented that the dogs who get to Westminster have been shown many times, and yet we saw several dogs who are nationally ranked, who have literally *hundreds* of Best of Breeds to their credit, who spooked in that ring. Are we to believe that they are ALL nerve bags? Do we completely discount every other experience, maybe many years worth,  where these dogs have been dragged from pillar to post and behaved admirably? Do we ignore all this in favor of an 'assessment' based on a momentary reaction one of the most unnatural and stressful environments one could possibly imgaine?

Part of it is that the Group ring as Westminster is *nothing* like your average show. Cameras, lights, audio equipment, strange people barking orders... It winds the nerves of the handlers very tight, knowing that they are on camera and their every move is being judged by MILLIONS. Do you think this nervousness has no bearing on the dogs' behavior? Many dogs that are normally very mellow get corked up in that scenario. And part of it, let's be honest for a moment, is that the judge himself was nervous, and he happens to be known for being rough on an ORDINARY day. Under these circumstances, he was clearly even more tense and harsh than usual. Oh, but wait, that's just 'making excuses.' right? yeah. Tell me, do the *handlers* and *judges* also have 'poor temperament' that should prevent them from  having kids (if they were prudent) since so many intelligent HUMANS are spooked by all the hoopla and etc? Or is that an unfair question? Those of you who have never attended the Garden, you simply cannot imagine. This is NOTHING like your average dog show, AND THE DOGS KNOW IT.

Saltzman is ham-handed and dogs do NOT respond well to it. Not just Beaucerons, and not just Arco. And trying to make a grand leap from this to the idea that the whole breed is somehow a mess, is just laughable on its face, I'm sorry. If they were universally unsound they probably would never have made it to breed status to begin with, you know. Few people are interested in living with psychos, no matter how cool they may look.

Wow. just... wow. I won't bother to share my own experience with the breed, or my impressions of the dog himself from meeting him on more than one occasion, both in and out of the ring. He's even been out here to visit at my farm, where he was a perfect gentleman, but what do I know? So far, actual experience seems

(cont) trumped by 15 seconds of video feed.

I saw Arco at the World Dog Show in 2007.  I was impressed by his size, but not by his temperment.  He constantly showed, as some call it, "whale eyes".  He did not want to be there, nor did he want to be touched by another human.

Oh, and those judges were used to judging hard dogs, being FCI judges...so the excuse that they didn't know better or that they had a "palsey" doesn't wash with me.

And, again, shouldn't a sound, stable dog know that the judge wasn't threatening?  Just curious....I am new to the dog world, having only owned a few dogs over the years.

I know that dog shows are stressful.  I have been to a few with my roommate, and in fact, that was why I was at the World Show, was to help her out.

However, that said, most dogs were social and outgoing....including the other Beaucerons there.

BTW, at the Journee 2 yrs ago where Arco "passed" his temperment test, didn't the owner have to "argue" with the judges?  That they did not want to pass the dog, becuase while he "stood" and did everyhting, they felt that he had been conditioned and that he was fearful?  That is the "rumor" that is floating around out there from some who were there.  THis is just a rumor and only what I was told.  That they passed him because he "technically" passed the temperment test, but that they did not want to pass him because he was shy and fearful.

Like some, I would not want a puppy out of this dog(btw, I have seen videos of this dog, and have met other dogs that have come from this line----they were "squirrely"...maybe lack of socialization?  But, if a breeder has sooooo many dogs that they cannot socialize them all properly, shouldn't they place some of them? 

Also, seeing a dog on a "farm" is a whole lot different than seeing them in "town", but a well tempered dog should be able to recover well and adjust, shouldn't they?

ALso, isn't it my understanding that at a Journee the owner of Arco argued with the judge about threatening Arco with a stick?  That he was in training for herding and had been thunked on the head with a stick, so it wasn't a fair test? 

Again, shouldn't a sound dog be able to tell the difference in a herding crook and a stick used to threaten someone like a bad guy on the street would threaten someone?

I will admit that I don't know everything about dogs and behavior. I have had 3 dobies and a nasty lab/hound cross in my life.  But I am learning. 

And I have learned what I like to see in a facial expression, and Arco doesn't pass the test----I would not trust him.  Under any circumstances.

desorceress said:  "...I also am amused that no one, not ONE person out of all the people who supposedly watched that video, bothered to comment on the demeanor of the JUDGE that the dog was reacting to. It is more than just the fact that his hands were shaking; he is *rough* in his exam and always has been. Let us also remember that not only Arco, but several *other* dogs reacted poorly to Saltzman's manhandling...."

Oh, but some of us did comment on that......... 

I liked Arco.    I've seen a couple and would like to see more Beauceron's, good ones before AKC has their way with them.

 We obviously have many different ideas on what a dog should or shouldn't be aloud to do in the ring. And as we can see we differ too on how a sound and stable dog is expected to react.  Some judges just don't have it (like people who always get bitten and wonder why!!).

If the AKC going to destroy the breed and all it's wonderful working ability..WHY DID THE BEAUCERON'S PEOPLE WANTED TO BE RECOGNIZED BY THE AKC?? They ask for recognition.the AKC didn't run after them.

Now I don't care if your dog is a poodle, a Mastiff or a beauceron..If you are showing on the AKC circuit you have to follow the rules. And this dog (maybe on that particular day.) didn't react in a good way. I know about the stress and blablabla..Doesn't working dogs are suppose to be able to work under stress?? We don't ask a lot from the dog.just stay it's ground, let the examination goes without showing sign of distress or fear..make an up and down and than go around the ring..Now I don't think that's too much for a working breed.

Maybe he's a good working dog( does he has any working titles??)..but clearly desn't have the attitude of a good show dog IMO

July- not one word of what I have tried to explain to you in this thread sunk in did it?

There is a different betweeen working under stress and showing stress. That dog showed stress, but didn't scream, tuck its tail, and run. No dog is fearless. Like GARD explained, suspicion and aggression go hand in hand, and if the dog is still very close to its working heritage, you cannot really expect it to stand still and ignore the world. This is just like that argument where just because a dog will bite first and ask questions later, it is immediately labelled as unstable, as if dogs like these are magically expected to be like Lassie and know the difference between good guy and bad guy when in fact it's all in the training.

Of course, I don't believe working dogs should try to show anyway, particularly where they're expected to act all cookie-cutter like. July is right, the Beauceron should have never been recognized by the AKC. Well, now that they are, just everyone wait a few generations and you'll be able to get dogs who excel in the show ring.

 Puputz..the dog did tuck its tail, and yes I think Beauceron should be shown we're people understand the breed (like breed survey in GSD). Maybe I wasn't clear about the point I wanted to make. AKC aloud a dog to be suspicious if  it is written in their standard (I didn't read the Beauceron's standard). They don't necessarelly want a dog to wag its tails and act like Labrador.  But If the standard says it is a confident and courageous breed than judges can interpret it differently.

And Yes GARD I did sunked in what you have said..And Beauceron's are a suspicious breed much much more than GSD, and Dob, and Rottie.  And maybe in a couple of generations we will see better show dogs..but is it going to be good for the breed?? I don't know..it's up to the Beauceron's people to decide.

"And maybe in a couple of generations we will see better show dogs..but is it going to be good for the breed?? I don't know..it's up to the Beauceron's people to decide."

Hell No it's not going to be good! AKC has done nothing positive for any breed EVER! $ is what drives everything AKC does, it's not for the welfare of the breed or single dogs or even the people who buy them. Anyone with $35 to get a ped can. No checks on temp or even proof that dogs are up to the breed standard. How many breeds once great, have been ruined after being introduced to AKC?

Exactly the same here in the uk with the K.C.,money,money,money.betterment of breeds,my arse!!!!!.  liz