UK Show Scene - Is it time for change? - Page 10

Another typical attempt to slither out of the back door comment from you David, always your way when one of the actual entities on this board has the guts to stand up for themselves against the snide, underhand comments you make on them here,  under the pretence that you werent refering to them at all, when lack of  'otherwise' denial makes it blatantly obvious to all but the stupid , that your attempting to score points by posting demeaning remarks immediately under the comments of others is exactly what you were doing.

Same old, same old.  If I'm Neurotic then rather I be that, than the snivelling coward who shrinks away from admitting who he made such desparaging remarks against, having to back step to the Cap Fit syndrome, Give me a break. Are you man or mouse?

Sue B

ps Sign my name and admit who I am talking to on here

The obvious does not need admission. Please take your tablets Sue.

It is not important who the helpers are, they are there to be fair consistant and carry out the JUDGES instructions, it is the handlers job to prepare the dog fully to do the work (we are only talking of biting a sleeve, not a helper) the sleeve is always the same no matter who wears it

If the dog has good character a working drive and a genuine sleeve drive he will bite, if he has none of these he should not be in the show

reason: So you think ALL helpers are the same? You also think that a dog has good character, working drive and a sleeve drive or it hasn't? And you don't accept there are differences or a variable range of these qualities in dogs?

the germans must be doing it all wrong then when they let you use the helpers before the show but we know best dont we lol..All this just because people want to know who the helpers are and use them if people are saying all good dogs should do it what does it matter if you live near enough to practice with the helpers  they can cause all dog will act the same and do it anyway if there good enough.. so people on here keep telling me ..just  maybe we havnt got any helpers yet maybe there still in training lol..as for the off lead gaiting you best train them up incase they do have to don it maybe the problem is theres some dogs that wont do it...but they want to be in the sieger show this year so best leave it till next year..

Well said reason.  It's about time everyone took a good hard look at the  state of the breed today.  The test of courage is hardly a demanding discipline in it's current format.  It is a well rehearsed, highly stylised and very well trained for activity.  It is therefore very dissappointing that a dog that fails such an easy ask should ever be considered Sieger, let alone be promoted in the breeding paddocks.  Yes we all know that dogs are not machines, but be honest, would a sound working dog fail these courage tests?    Does this system of lipservice to working ability really do this breed any favours, or are breeders conning themselves into thinking that they are preserving working ability by submitting their dogs to such a weak and inconsistent test? 

Just think back to the time when you bought your first GSD.  Why did you choose the breed and what did you expect to get?  Personally I was drawn to the outstanding presence, loyalty, trainability, and working ability.  I was not looking for a sheep in wolf clothing.  New owners are the future of the breed.  Give them a sound upstanding animal to be proud of and you have them hooked on the breed.

The German system SHOULD work in theory, but unfortunately even after decades of use, the courage test has not resulted in an improvement in working drive amongst show gsds. (rather the opposite).   It worries me greatly that Videx states that "show dogs are not primarily working dogs".  Well what are they then?  This is a working breed and it should be preserved as such.  You are not going to get the pinnacle of working perfection in a show gsd, any more than you are going to get a perfectly constructed gsd at the top of working scene, but that should not stop you from aiming for it.   Why should working drive of the top workers not  be desirable in a show gsd?  If you aim low in the first place you aren't going to achieve much.

It may be better to cancel this years British Sieger - it appears too many issues are not finalised. It also appears that the THREE organisations responsible for organising the British Sieger cannot work together, if that is the case, then it should be organised by ONE GSD CLUB, and that should be the best Club for the task, one with an outstanding record for EXCELLENT SHOWS.

Hesley - well said.  I always thought that breeders should strive to produce the best and not something that just wins in the ring as most of the dogs end up in pet homes and a few will go on to be working dogs with the police, security firms or possibily the army.

There has been a programme on the last couple of weeks showing dogs working with the police and it has been primarily GSD's and spaniels. It has shown the GSD in all coats, to be efficient working dogs who can multitask on a daily basis, and this is what they should be. The GSDs that I know of that work with the police, some are bred to be police dogs, some have been donated or bought in.  I even know of 1 force that has been going to germany and importing dogs but the one thing they all have in common is that they have to be sound, consistent and reliable.  They dont have the opportunity of trying again next time, or never mind its only a show.  They have to be there and support their human co-workers and during the course of their shift they might go from tracking a person, something handled by a person or just being an effective deterrant.

The old boy who lives with me, has spent some time in the ring, his father was a very good working dog and his brother qualified and spent his life working for the police, and even now if I take him out I know that one hand signal and he is responding as fast as his aged limbs can.  He will still drop the distance of a rugby field and IF someone put on a padded sleeve he would be there like a shot (he loves man work!).

So really for the show ring to do well, especially with the format being asked for at the British Sieger, all breeders need to work on dogs that not only look good but have the drive stamina and will to work well.  Not produce over glossy, over angulated (either way) and unsound in temperment.  Then with this hopefully will come new owners who want to enjoy showing off their dogs and will increase the number's of exhibitors and in turn those willing to work on the club comittee's towards putting together fab shows.  After all you need both sides to make a good show.

when I was doing schutzhund my girl was very high drive never once let go of the sleeve unless told to by me on the out command we had entered into a show and for the first time in my life my bitch came off the sleeve the helper had hit her really hard we all heard the crack over her spine which is were it is not supposed to hit the judge then made them redo the exercise unfortunately everytime he went to hit her she came off it killed me to see this happen, it took me 7 months to get her back on the sleeve I never entered a test again under that helper he was an arrogant nasty piece of work so yes it is important to know who the helper is on the day also important to let the dogs work with them a day or two before the show so that the dog will know how the handler wants them to work each handler works differently they have their own methods and the dogs need to know what will be wanted from them.

ej

I have no intention  of breed dog bashing or working dog bashing but i am committed in my belief that the seiger show test is NOT difficult for a dog with good character drive and traning and we should all understand,and not delude ourselves that the seiger show test has been watered down for the show masses and it does not truly test the dog, if they had to do a working test against the likes of Robbie De Jong and V Honselaar as helpers  i think the handlers and owners would not like the reaction in their dogs and would probably struggle to catch them after the test