BBC Dropping Crufts?; tv documentary tonight - Page 4

I am surprised at the comment by Philip saying  quote- unsoundness is not a health issue- sorry but surely anything that departs from  correct STRAIGHT movement will in time become a health issue, it cannot be said that  GSD's SHOULD move in such  an unco ordinated way. As a herding breed, YES they DO require angulation to allow for quick turns, but once it becomes excessive( as we saw in the dogs featured in the program) it naturally then becomes a weekness & potentially a health issue & dogs with that degree of angulation / unsoundness would be incapable of turning quickly in a co-ordinated manner without the likelyhood eventually of sustaining injury or strain, therefore surely it decrees it IS then a health issue that is being promoted by judges highly placing dogs that move as if crippled ??I for one would never purposely aim to breed dogs with such exaggerated hind angles

singe  I would just like to say, I do not agree with unsoundness and we do not have it in our Kennel.  Regarding Health issues, I was watching the programme with dogs brains to big for their sculls, dogs having fits, dogs sctratching endlessly, I have yet to hear of a German Shepherd dying of over angulation and unsoudness, but maybe you can inform me of 1 or 2 dogs.  On the programme they only showed a couple of  German Shepherd's out of many.  To the public that will represent all German Shepherds.  And this is one of the reasons why the programme was biased.

Philip

Knowing the person featured mainly in the GSD clips( who is incidently not a big name or face in the breed but who have made up a CH) I felt the  documentry was extremely sad and very misleading!. The gentleman was  only the handler of the dog shown , he didn't breed the dog and isn't associated with it in anyway. Yet they are being inundated with calls ,texts about this and with regard their own stock. .Its not fair. Two of the 3 dogs featured were veterans over 7 years of age ..It was so very decieving, they certainly didn't tell the viewers how old they were! Its  just not right.

So what recourse is there  for this  gentleman and the others featured.  Why should they be tarred alongside the despicable cavalier and ridgeback breeders.Thie gentleman I know's kennel health check without fail and are one of the kennels who do think before they breed and yet this was not put across or an explaination as to him only being a handler given.. I feel it was misleading. They showed 3 different dogs but  the information given out re any of them was just generalised and nothing short of senstionalism. 

Extreme angulation doesn't mean bad hips and it doesn't always mean that a dog will be destined to be wobbly and loose.. .Hockiness is not on the same playing field as the issues highlighted in the other breeds. Yes it is not aesthetically pleasing  but I have never heard of hockiness causing  major suffering! And what percentage of adult show animals are loose? Certainly not the amount the BBC would have you believe. Infact I am sure most would choose not to show or breed dogs with extremely loose movement.

 What about all the  GSDs being churned out by BYB's, pet breeders or disreputable show kennels etc who are breeding from un hip scored stock or from stock that is health checked but whose health check results are ignored if the results are not to the liking of the breeders. Its not enough that the kennel club insist on health checks , the results should matter . We can all hip score etcscore etc but we can also all ignore the results and breed regardless if we want .. Thats as equally wrong.I know in the show fraternity at times dogs with higher than would be desired scores are bred but this is only usually done by respectable kennles who know their lines inside out and know the hip producing history/ qualities of their lines.In general it is done as a calculated risk by research of lines etc. Mistakes can be made but in the main are learnt from.

Maybe I  am being naive but I  just cant see how they can compare the GSD with the otheR breeds they did . And using the footage they did with the people they used was not right,It was disinformation and sensationalism.

Philip - it was obvious that the program was going to be biased.  Anything that is targetting pedigree dogs was going to be that.

However, look at all the breeds they didnt mention, many of those will have problems.  However you can understand them looking at GSDs as they have had health issues for many years.  My vet has always been very up front about GSD's and their book of illnesses and I am someone who has suffered with a dog who has literally worked her way through the different problems.  Its not that many years since hip dysplacia was a real issue in the breed and the public have long memories.

All you can do is prove that your dogs are sound in movement - in all directions and then you wont have a problem with finding them homes.  If that person was so easily swayed by 1 program with only a few minutes of GSD coverage then they were probably not the best people to have one of your dogs.  If however the program makes people ask questions and do research before purchasing a puppy that can only be a good thing for the breed and dogs in general.

Hey Folks,

Do we all not support THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG, in the UK  both Show and Working owners need to all work together, as we argue about how much the others dog are not as good we are losing valuable time. This breed is first and foremost a Working Breed, so we should all remember this. It is about time all GSD Organisations work together to insist on minimal standards, our european cousins all insist on minimum standards with regard to health and work, why can we not take a leaf out of thier book.

I do fear that most will not follow these minimum standards as most show people never work thier dogs and most working people never show, we both need to represent the breed in a whole picture.

Despite this programme it has injured those that breed and take thier JOBS seriously, I have recently taken my working female to Holland and used a really nice KNPV dog, I realise that the most of the pups will go to pet homes who I will try to encourage do some form of work, occasionally I will be lucky that they go to working homes but reality has to be faced.

Just mentioning Canine Herpes to my Vet brought the pains on, I even had to purchase the Serum from Belgium on the way home so he could vaccinate, I then printed the information of the Internet for him to read so I could educate him, yet this disease is prevalent within our breed here.

It is time we began having meetings between all GSD people here in the UK and discuss the way forward, forgetting all political views working for this wonderful breed.

Dave Wooles (Working Enthusiast)

I was not insinuating that any one particular kennel has more or less unsoundness,(Like you I Philip I am proud of the straighness of ALL of my dogs movement) only, that it is becoming a bigger problem then it was, I certainly agree 100% that hind unsoundness isn-t anything like the issue compared to some of the disgraceful & heart breaking problems that other breeds have &  were featured, all I was trying to say is that like it or not looseness, unsoundness, knitting , call it what you like IS a hereditory & undesirable problem

I quite agree I don't surpose there are many dogs who have died of this problem, can't remember actually putting that as the end result of unsoundness? I feel it very nieve to be only apparently concerned with life threatening problems within a breed, does that mean we don't bother hip scoring or elbow scoring as a vast majority of dogs with severe problems in this area do not have to be put down, it is managable same as a lot of epilepsy & numerous other health problems but surely we are not to ignor traits creeping into any breed JUST because the dogs don't die from it ?

I do feel for Andrew as it was unfortunate that he is apparently receiving a backlash from the program just because he happened to be the handler, but at the end of the day a large majority of GSD's currently in the ring DO NOT MOVE STRAIGHT AT ALL speeds, they should ,so therefore in my book it IS a problem, not life threatening but still something that surely GOOD breeders would rather try to eliminate ????

I agree that perhaps the program appeared bias to the GSD, BUT I dare say that all the other breeds featured are bleeting exactly the same, I know several friends who have some of the OTHER breeds featured & slated, most are all too aware of the problems within their chosen breeds & are trying ( with NO help or encouragement from the kennel club) to rectify those problems, I think it was on the whole a very honest program doind a good job to highlight the appalling practices rife in alot of breeds, if it means that  just ONE breeder changes their way of breeding to only using tested & clear sound stock then to my mind the program has done some good, also perhaps the general puppy buying pet owners will now be more aware of researching exactly what problems are within any chosen breed & search out responsible breeders who do try to breed good sound healthy animals.

beepy  Just to say we just put the email on about the puppy buyer just to show the effect of the programme, we are not bothered about they cancelled.  Yes, we are glad they are not buying one of our pups now but I have to say they were nice, caring couple.  The couple did not just come round to see the pups, they saw the mother Rena of the pups and saw all our other dogs as we got them out to show them and they are not unsound so they could not say it was from our dogs, they based their decision on.   Some dogs can have just a mild demonstration of unsoundness, and other dogs to a bad form, I do think when judging and breeding it is looking at the over all dog and what is behind it and knowing what is behind your female line.  However, unsoundness is still a fault.

Kerry

Singe , Hope you dont think I was responding  to your post when I commented on unsoundness not being life threatening,I was commenting on the programme in general as I felt it the GSD issues highlighted were not comparable to the other breeds, The problems highlighted with the other breeds were illnesses that are severly disabling, painful and in some breeds life threatening. If they were going to highlight the GSD perhaps they should have highlighted some of the conditons we have in our GSDs that are on a par.  I think that would have been more educational and valuable instead of the  same old  angulation debates. It made me wonder who motivated the GSD information for the programme as we have had a raging debate going on in the dog press over "type" for months.  Why pick solely on the "international " type . There was no information about the other type of GSD we see shown in the UK and its extreme evolution and the problems it has with the blatant lack of health checks done by many of its fraternity.

I do feel for the GSD handlers shown, in all other reports they showed the breeders  of the animals and it was made apparent  that they were breeders so the natural thing for Jo public is to assume that the GSDs shown were with their breeders also. My next door neighbour knows one of the GSD handlers featured in the documentary, the handler I referred to in my post (not Andrew ) as they have seen  him on several occassions now when they have travelled up here to visit. They have asked us today about the programme and about him and if its true about the "poor" GSDs he breeds because they thought that was what was being implied by the documentary.. How can that  be  fair. A  sentence  informing the public that the people shown were only handlers was surely the correct thing to do.

 The bottom line re the programme for Sheps for me was that it was unsound (no pun intended!;) ) putting hockiness alongside the other breed diseases mentioned was misleading when they could have perhaps used the time to highlight a health area that needs immediate adressing to bring our country into line with others, eg mandatory hip scoring for registration etc .I do agree that all faults are faults and I agree with you wholeheartedly  regards unsoundness ,Its not something I would want to see perpetuated in our breed either and I would love to see it eradicated .Faults be they cosmetic or illness based. should be bred away from.  It would be nice to think that dog breeding was based on the drive to correct faults , while keeping the welfare of the animals foremost in your mind as you go but sadly I guess that isn't always the case :(

p.s kerry , thats such a shame , People missing out on a good puppy as a result of a tabloidesque GSD report :(  and I bet you are not the only now who will get that type of email  sadly :(  The knock on effect will be to undoubtedly  push people who want a GSD as a companion away from show line puppies. They will end up buying from  BYB and breeders with no ethics at all re health instead :( Thats worrying because genuine  buyers will do it thinking its a safe way to avoid health problems.!

Not to give a true and balanced report is shameful but I'm not surprised.  Yes, the Shepherds looked less than sound when "walking" and I've seen many like them in the rings today.  However, it's interesting that no mention was made of HD.  Given that hip scoring was started by the GSD "lot" and not the RSPCA or the KC... perhaps that's not good press?  What about haemophillia... the GSD fraternity used selective breeding to largely rid the breed of this problem... not good press?  Epilepsy... it's been rife in Boxers for years... we seldom hear of it now in the GSD because of selective breeding... not good press?

There are problems, no doubt about it but many problems have been overcome in the past, by selective breeding.

Where's the sense in trying to compare "human breeding" to dog breeding?  It's blatant scare mongering and that is neither acceptable not reasonable.  This "documentary" could have been... should have been, constructive and balanced, they had such a fantastic opportunity to get it right but once again we get headline grabbing trash with some horrible, sad truths inflicted on man's best friend by some  "frankenstein" breeders whose dogs are registered by the stupid, money grabbing KC.