Is "failing to out" nature or nurture? - Page 2

If the dam is known for this fault, is it best to steer clear of her litters for fear of getting a pup with the same fault, or is this a learned fault and not hereditary? No reason to stay clear of a pup out of such a female, if the rest of the temperament is good in both dam and pups. If a dam has a problem outing it could be lack of training, inability or lack of experience of handler/trainer, lack of experienced trainers/helpers at the training facility, and yes, nerves. etc. There are few dogs that truly cannot be taught to out. Such dogs usually have other issues as well! Also keep in mind that many accounts on why a dog does this or fails to do that are made up to make the dog sound better or tougher, and often have little basis on the truth. Basically a breeder can tell you anything. You cannot tell by a scorebook where the females problems really were, unless you witnessed the trial or know someone who did. Maybe there was no problem and she just went into breeding after she had her 1. Maybe she was too weak to continue... As a newbie be aware that there are many tales out there that make a dog sound better than it is. Makes the owner proud, could set you up for disappointment. In Germany, at least the people I frequent, very tough hard confident females that have a tendency not to out and give their trainers a run for their money are actually much sought after. For you as a newbie I have a few recommendations: - get a titled dog that is easy to handle and fun to work with so that this dog can teach you about the sport. A well trained older dog will get you through the first couple of years and when this dog is ready to retire you get to try what you have learned on a new pup or young adult. You can also trial much sooner and get the feeling of accomplishing something. When training your second dog, you can avoid some of the faults you made first time around. - if you are set on a pup now, get one that shows no extremes or comes from extreme lines. You need a mid range dog that will be fun to work with, will not intimidate you as it gets older, and will give you a good feeling of success so that you will stick with it. - You will always mess up your first SchH dog and not get it to its fullest potential. That is just how these things go. So when you make your first purchase keep that in mind when first set backs come your way. You can correct all the mistakes you make with that first dog with the next one. - if the dog or pup you purchased does not work out for you, be prepared to split company with this dog. SchH is a team sport. If you and your dog cannot work as a team you will never be successful at it. So when picking a pup or a dog choose one you genuinely LIKE and feel you can get along with.

DH -- i like your commentary -- very eloquent and i good point about selective breeding for trait / behavior -- i would like to say that i think it is of interest that one/ or several have made the point would think a dog not outing is not good because it won't SCH Title -- HMMMM.... --- so -- that is i thonk very very irrelevant !@! a GSD must as i say have learned to control itself [ or as ther s say be controlled ] -- i feel that a gsd that will not out / has not been out should stay home and is not to amenable to working .. who cares about the titles .. A gsd should be mannered and under Self Control at all times irregardless of it doing schutzhund. the out should be non centered as to whether the dog can title or not -- better to have a quick clean out whether you title or not and especially when required to do so !! that is what is important about the out!!

perhaps a new topic, but does anyone see any relation between dogs that don't out and agression towards either other dogs or people??? From either a training or nerve standpoint (the arguments being presented here)? If this should be a new thread, feel free to start one... Just curious.

HI DH, geese, i was thinking to write that I prefer such a female, but, was afraid to get it wrong on paper and be misunderstood by some... You said it perfectly in your paragraph below. "In Germany, at least the people I frequent, very tough hard confident females that have a tendency not to out and give their trainers a run for their money are actually much sought after." And, i'm in the US ;) So, i might conclude there are plenty here too that feel that way.

alpha - thank you for your kind words, but I think you are missing that outing is more often an issue of training, as in **quality** of training **and** of the trainer/handler! A dog that does not out with one person may out very well with another. Unless you keep up the training, the issue of not outing cannot be resolved. The dog will not get up one day and know how to out after all. Also, a trial situation is VERY different. Some dogs catch onto trials very quickly, as in "hey, they can't kick my butt today, I will show them". Takes a smart dog one fault he is not corrected for to figure that out and then slack more and more throughout the trial. Add to that the handlers nerves, that the dog will pick up, inexperience, etc. Or the dog is nervous or distracted itself because of the new hussle and bussle. Just because a dog shows nerves during a trial does not mean its a poorly trained dog or a dog with bad nerves/disposition. It could be mirroring the owner who is freaking, or it could have never been exposed to a crowd of people before, etc. Imagine the first time you had to recite a poem in front of the whole class. I see people on this site judge so quickly while forgetting that every public appearance takes that extra ounce of courage, routine, and maturity. Dogs like people grow into it, some better than others. Some never get the chance because their people give up on them prematurely. Saoa - yup, good hard strong confident females are a rare find. :) Few people can handle such a dog effectively though. Also. Often, the hard dogs that are tough to train are not the ones that get the high scores. People put way too much emphasis on high scores and not why a dog got the scores it got, where it got the scores and under which judge. Many US trials are still held under the old rules. Under the new rules a single mistake can take you out of the V score. Train - good point, and yes should be a new thread.