Gone But Not Forgotten - Page 2

Brady Bee,

the thread was right here on the Pedigreedatabase about three weeks or so ago. Here is the link for your convenience: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/218955.html#219229

In addition, if you read German or have somebody who can translate for you, please go to www.dsh-biz.de . There is a thread on the German language showline board. Unfortunately, I can not directly provide a link since that function is disabled (either by the forum or my pc - I don't know). But I can help you navigate: Once you are on the forum, please scroll down to "Zucht", click that on which will open the sub-forum. The thread in question is named "Wie langlebig sind DSH? Erasmus und Alfons". It also gives you a pretty good idea how most Germans feel about that issue (not limited to Alfons, but to longevity in general).

My opinion is the same as the general consensus in Germany - the average age span is 11 to 13 years. Most of my dogs lived to that age. I just lost my Zamb vd Wienerau-daughter at age 14 and a half this summer.

While it might be callous to some of you, that there are no eulogies to great ones passing, there is no secrecy around it. It is just not important to most in Germany and therefore might only be mentioned in passing at events. I did ask a few people about Astana Alfons at the Sieger Show in Aachen and most just shrugged their shoulders - "Dogs do die, you know" or "Is he dead, I was not aware of it".

You guys really should ask the people involved directly. That is the best way to receive answers instead of spreading rumors. Mr. Kartheiser is a judge and his contact info is published. If you need help in locating it, please let me know.

AnjaBlue,

dogs are not humans, as much as we love them. Therefore, there is no "official cause of death" given to any dog - to quote you. You have not addressed my previous post. Have you contacted Mrs. van Dorssen about Flipp's death to confirm the gastric torsion issue? If not, I can help you with contact info as well. She also frequents this board.

BTW, a few years ago my Yasko vom Farbenspiel-son which I had imported from German as a 4 month old died of a heart attack. I know of a couple others out of that line as well. Should we be concerned with that as well? 

Silbersee, the death of your 4 mth old Yasko son does concern me.  See my thread 'Yasko lines health problems'.  I keep coming across dogs that have health problems or have died young & each time I look them up Yasko appears on the pedigree.  I know he has been used extensively at stud & so proportionately the problems may be insignificant, even so, it is a coincidence.

Miss Lily Dexter, I have read your post regarding your severely ill dog and I am sorry that you have to go through that. But dogs do get sick and sometimes it cannot be pinpointed to a single dog in the pedigree, but rather a bad combination which was well intended. To correct you: My Yasko-son died not die at 4 months of age. Please check my post again. I have written that I acquired him at that age. But rest assured that he did not sire any offspring at all. My husband found him dying in his kennel run and rushed to the house to get me. By the time I came out, he was gone. Our vet could not find anything obvious and ruled it a heart attack. And personally, I did not see the need to send his remains to the state lab for further exams.  So we left it at that and buried him on our property. Many years ago, I had a litter out of VA-Esko vd Wienerau and a VA-Kevin v Assault-daughter. Out of the three puppies in that litter, one died suddenly at 13 weeks while playing in his new owners' yard. For ethnic reasons, the owners refused an autopsie and gave me the dead puppy for burial (they lived in a townhouse). I hate to say it, but I did take him secretly to my vet since I wanted to know. He could not find anything and called it "sudden cardiac arrest". The puppy had not had any heart murmur prior to death. I replaced the puppy with one out of the next litter and this couple bought another companion from me a year later. Another littermate to this puppy died a similar way when he was about three years old. He too came in from playing, drank some water in the kitchen and died. Do I believe that there was a problem? You bet!! But my research did not find a common nominator, except hearsay on the sire's side. Well, back then nobody had internet access, so it was not knowledge readily available. BTW, the third puppy lived to an old age and he was neutered early since he had a retained testicle and was sold as a pet.

I have been a breeder and owner of GSDs for many years, and these were my only encounters with the "sudden cardiac arrest" syndrom. It does happen and it is most unfortunate, but to badmouth certain dogs or lines for it, is not a good idea. Buying a puppy is a risk, just like anything else is in life. Nobody can guarantee that your dog will live a healthy long life, but a reputable breeder who has done his homework and breeds with his clear conscience will certainly better your odds tremendously.

Please give your female a hug from me and keep her comfortable. May you experience better luck with your next companion.

Chris 

Lily Dexter

you say the breed is in a dire state, in which country do you refer to, because it is not true of that statement over here in Belgium

Over here in Europe we can hip score Dogs after 12 months old, i myself have had two dogs done at 13 months and 15 months, both A normal,  i do not see that changing in leaving them a few months longer before they are scored

To say any other, is  to say the Belgian Admin and the SV do not know what they are talking about

I do not have my Dogs Hip Scored because i wish to breed with them as i have no interest in Breeding Dogs but for the Sport of ScHh because i have no wish to subject a Dog with bad legs to the rigours of the sport so i do them at that time for my peace of mind

Going on to hips i know over here nine people who have had Dogs Hip Scored just this year, and all nine are A Normal, not a bad average and that is some done at Univ of Liege and some in Germany

Steve

Don't want to stir anything but there are too many health problems with the show lines. All that inbreeding line breeding is surely catching up. And if some of you don't see that as a big issue than I ask:  "what is wrong with you?" I know some back yard breeders that have better health record!!! And they are the one that should produce crap. I know that buying a puppy is a crap shoot, but let’s be realistic.

As to Astana Alfons, it is published that he died of heart muscle infection, a complication which is usually caused by a viral/bacterial infection (not inherited), due to a possible cold or flu. - Silbersee


While it is true that infection is not a heredity issue, infection of the heart muscle is hardly a common infection and throws up a "red flag". This type of health condition could easily point to major underlaying problems especially with the heart, which if it was weak for any reason would make it far more susceptible to infect, or there could have been an immunity issue both which could very well be issues of heredity.  This is exactly why an autopsy report would help. IMO if you are going to publicly sell dogs you have the basic responsibilities of providing health issue updates publicly, and secrecy regarding particular breeding lines health and temp issues should not be defended. Since the dog was a breeder the information should be readily available. This is one area were transparency is needed and must be insisted on.

Justcurious,

I have to disagree, sorry! But I will change my mind if you can provde medical reports that this infection should throw up a "red flag". I see that I did not mention it here but on the above mentioned German board. In 1994, I lost a whole litter to Parvo virus (even though they were vaccinated twice -that was back when I was naive and believed that puppies need to be vaccinated every 2 to 3 weeks starting at 5 to 6 weeks of age). They were 9 weeks old and only one female survived, the smallest in the litter. Back then, I read everything I could about Parvo and found that even though animals seemingly recuperate, they can be prone to heart failures due to heart muscle weaknesses for the rest of their life. In addition, a simple cold or flu virus can cause that in humans. I also know of a human death related to that. And I believe that Hexe (in the Astana threat) corrected you (or somebody else?)  as well and mentioned that something as simple as an abcessed tooth can cause this as well. And trust me, she has extensive medical knowledge!

Let me ask you this: Why does an owner or breeder of a famous dog (for lack of better definition) have to come here on this board where all these anonymous lurkers wait and explain themselves or the circumstances of their dog's death? Why do you think that? If I was a concerned person (breeder, owner of offspring etc. etc.), I would contact them directly, either by email or phone! Wouldn't that be the simplest thing?

Snajper69,

I don't know what your level of expertise or sources are, but I can assure you that workinglines are just as prone as showlines for skeletal problems, if not worse (back). And I am not taking sides, as I own both. As an attentive reader of both, showline and workingline boards I can assure you that this is a true statement. As to other ailments, neurological, skin, etc. - you will find that in all lines as well.

so, I am really curious to know on what you base your statement - hopefully more than hearsay, as this is always the root of problems.

IT IS JUST NOT IMPORTANT TO MOST IN GERMANY. I find that statement most worrying,the unexplained death of any young gsd used exstensively at public stud should be of the utmost importance!!! I do not expect owners to disclose such information on a public forum,but it SHOULD be made known in some way. This is why all the rumours start in the first place, many many people do find it IMPORTANT,especially those who have used the studs mentioned. I think a lot of owners have contacted owners of alfons and have had no replies,the breeders as far as i know have not even been informed. And on a final note,and no disrespect intended,the germans are very good at burying thier heads in the sand as far as diseases,health issues are concerned.IMO they are not caring as they are all about competition and winning,dogs are easy replaced,so a young stud dies,never mind there will be another to take his place !!!!! soooooo sad. now before everyone gets on thier high horse,i do not mean all breeders in germany are the same,from personal experience.  liz

I agree with you LIZ it is a big problem, and it dose not matter if we talking about working lines or show lines, all those info should be avaliable to public, hideing it, and being quite about it will just extend the damage.

I lost a whole litter to Parvo virus (even though they were vaccinated twice

they probably got parvo from the vax one of my gsd did.

Something as simple as an abcessed tooth can cause this as well.

this is true though if the heart is normal it happens very very rarely.  but if you have a weak heart, say a condition like mitral value prolapse, you are far more vulnerable to heart infection hence the 'red flag'.  if the heart becomes infected there is a higher probability that it is a symptom of a some underlying problem.  if there is no know heart condition then only an autopsy could reveal if this was true or not.  hearsay is just not enough. the only way to answer most of the questions being asked and the only way to silence the speculations is to have an autopsy report done.

Why does an owner or breeder of a famous dog (for lack of better definition) have to come here on this board where all these anonymous lurkers wait and explain themselves or the circumstances of their dog's death?

they don't have to do anything they don't want to do including produce an autopsy unless of course they are court ordered to do so by some one who has a vested interest in the dog. but imo if they have bred and sold a fair number of pups who then go on the produce more pups it would be the responsible thing to do (well not necessarily come here but make the info available for someone to share with the gsd community). just to be clear i for one am not asking them to explain themselves just asking for some details regarding the health issues surrounding the death. the reason i feel ok about people wanting to know is because it's good for the breed to share this info.  this dog has passed his genes onto many dogs and many of his progeny will in all likelihood continue passing these genes on, so it's valuable to know, for a fact, if it was a fluke or a genetic weakness; not just hearsay, which is all that has been publicly share to date.- JMO