Gone But Not Forgotten - Page 3

justcurious,

again, neither you (I think, otherwise you would have mentioned it already) nor I are medical experts, so it is a mute point to discuss. Even if there was an underlying cause, how would you find out? Any suggestions? I can tell you that I know of quite a few people over the years who had tried to find out what their dogs died of, only to spend hundreds (in one case even $ 2,000). At best, they received some vague answers, even from state labs.

In the case of Astana Alfons, Mr. Kartheiser wrote that he had an autopsy done and would provide it to the former owners/breeders. Why don't they step forward?

As to funky munky's post:  It seems that most in Germany who knew the dog also heard of the cause of death and accepted it as a given. Again, they feel that dogs (just like people) can die too. Some get hit by cars, some get cancer and some die of other ailments. And why do you feel that the Germans stick their heads in the sand? Do you really think that our breed is so unhealthy? Maybe, I just got lucky with my mostly healthy animals? As a matter of fact, my dogs usually only see the vet for vaccinations and hip/elbow xrays. I also do not feed them anything special, but Royal Canine and Iams. And gosh, my husband dares to also give them table scraps (which they love btw). When I read about other breeds and/or talk to other people, I think that our GSDs are often much better off. Or is it a UK matter, that you have more problems in your dogs than we do? But I can't  imagine that. Please do let me know, I am serious. But again, maybe I stick my head in the sand too. After all, I am German. We have our incidences of hip and elbow dysplasia every once in a while in our breed. Usually it is mild or moderate, less severe. I hear of digestive issues, which is of a big concern (EPI, inflammatory bowl syndrome etc.). Some here are concerned with hermangiosarcoma (spelling?), which I have never experienced myself, neiter do I know of a dog personally who died of that cancer. One female of mine developed mammary gland cancer at age 7. I had it removed, no chemo, she was spayed,  and she lived to be 11 and a half. That is the only cancer I have ever experienced in my dogs. My husband's male died from anal fistulas. I had to put one puppy to sleep due to a severe case of mega esophagus, and a couple with milder cases we found homes for. But that was 3 in many years. So, what are the rising and alarming health problems? What am I missing? I do not want to sound like a broken record, but I truly do not know what  you are referring to. Would love to discuss that and hear other opinions.

Snajper,

may I remind you that I am still waiting on an answer, why you state that showlines suffer from more illnesses than workinglines! Thanks.

it is a mute point to discuss.

it's not a moot point it's a question.  there is no debate going on just the question - how did alfons die? - with no answer just hearsay. 

Even if there was an underlying cause, how would you find out?

an autospy, even if the autopsy was inconclusive it would still be a far better answer then the "whisper down the alley" statement floating around.

Mr. Kartheiser wrote that he had an autopsy done and would provide it to the former owners/breeders. Why don't they step forward?

l haven't been following this that closely so please correct me if I'm wrong but the last thing I remember reading about this no autospy was received nor was there any reply to emails.

I have no idea if the autopsy report was received or not, but you should be able to find out from the owners of the Astana kennel?

What is the difference between an autopsy being inconclusive and the "wisper down the alley" statement? Neither one will stop the nasty rumors by anonymous writers.

Again, why don't you contact either the Astana people or Mr. Kartheiser?

So, to stop with Astana Alfons for now, can you contribute to the points I made about the general health of our dogs? What are your experiences as a breeder and/or multiple dog owner? What kind of health problems have you repeatedly encountered?

Should we not be taking note of repeated health issues now,instead of waiting another 10 years!!!! What if there is a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off,are we wrong to want to know the answers now? Now as to,is this just a uk thing,i very much doubt it, we just want to know if there is a connection between all these "top" young dogs dying. Silbersee,i have always found your posts interesting and informative so please do not take this the wrong way.Iam glad you have healthy dogs,but in the bigger picture you and your dogs are a minority. There are just too many "new" illnesses coming to light to ignore,i for one do not want to be sitting in 10 years saying,"i wish". liz

Silbersee, I apologies I been not checking in. To answer your question it is just personal experience, some online research, as well lately I got to know few more people that own and breed solely show line, and I have to say I am not impressed. I do understand that you can't judge all show line based on worst experience, but like I said, lately I been seeing way more issues with show line than work lines. I do understand that there are flukes in both, but so far majority that I notice was in Show not Work lines, if I am wrong please correct me and direct me to better source of information.

HD is common in a lot of big breed dogs, and all GSD's, so I am not seeing co-relation between working and show line on that subject, but only good breeding programs vs. crappy ones, as well I believe that environment, and nutrition plays grater role in HD than genetic traits.

I didn't mean to offend any one, I am glad that you have luck in both lines, and I would really like if we all have the same good experience. I just don't like when breeders try to cover up issues within their bloodlines, after all don't we have the same goal in mind to improve and maintain the good traits of our GSD's? If you not willing to share publicly than you definitely are hiding something and please don’t tell me that it isn’t so! We as people usually cover up our flaws, not the other way around.

I did own in the past quite few back yard breeding (no papers) GSD I believe they all were out of show lines and I have to say I didn't have any problems what so ever with those. Great dogs, and still today none were able to replace them.

Liz, there is a good reason for the lack of response to the Breed Betterment Board and Heaven's Gait, most don't want their own and/or their dogs reputations tarnished by admitting they didn't live a long healthy life. Certainly no healthy large breed dog should die much before age 11 and then brushed aside as "just one of those things". Other breeds have open data bases, I wouldn't hold my breath until you see that happen with GSD's. Way, way too much money involved. If GSD puppies sold for $300 I'm pretty sure this would be a much healthier breed as there would be more breeding for the love of the breed and less for profit. Becoming a money breed is always the death knell for any breed.

There is also the pressure owners receive from the breeders of their sick and dying dogs.  I've had personal experience with that. Some will try to intimidate their buyers into keeping their traps shut when they lose their beautiful pets to illnesses that may have been avoided with a little sensible selection of breeding stock rather than using the flavor of the day or what just happens to be sitting in one's own backyard. When I reported on Heavens' Gait all the problems I had with my first GSD that breeder  even went to far as to tell me I was wrong about the parents, they never made that breeding!!!! I guess he filled out the AKC registration incorrectly then. I refused to remove that information and it is still there after 4 or so years.

BTW, I happen to know someone with an Alfons offspring who did ask the owners directly what happened to him. So far she has not been given the courtesy of any sort of response.  Maybe that lovely dog did die before his time due to unforseen circumstances; it's the secrecy that breeds all the contempt in our minds.

And the beat goes on.....

Thanks Blitzen you just put it what I though in such a perfect way.

I will add just one more observation to this thread and then duck for cover. IF (and take note that I did say IF) it is a fact that anabolic steriods are becoming the drug of choice to bulk up showline male GSD's both here and in Europe, then we are bound to see some very profound  side effects in the very near future - sudden death syndrome, "exploding hearts", and early infertility  problems would be the first that come to mind.

I am not saying Alfons or any other dog that has died young did so due to streoids so please don't anyone go there. Anabolic steroids could explain the grossly overdone and ponderous look to some males while the females seem to retain their feminine characteristics and athleticism. It could also explain why some die before their time.

Blitzen

Totally agree with everything you have said. I might just add, that if any of the "big " breeders every find, that circumstances(for whatever reason) dictate that they can no longer have a kennel full of dogs, and can only have one(as do most pet owners) and they suddenly find that there much loved friend and companion has some serious health problems then they may think more carefully and more concerned about the health problems of the shepherd as a whole. They will find that not only is it costly financially, but the heartbreak and worry is sometimes unbearable. And we should never forget that the majority of puppies born DO go to pet homes, where they are loved for what they are, and not what they can do for their owners.

Very true.