Does anyone no how INGODDS ALBERTS bitework? - Page 10

Deeswolf, re watch the video. the dogs initial grip is full but under threat and the stick hits the grip is unsettled and by the end of the drive the grip is only 1/2 to 3/4 full. you say that is fight drive and you could be right, but when a dog works himself off a grip under stick hits because of "fight drive" i call that lack of confidence to bite full under pressure. the grip might have also gone to shit because of pressure from the obedience or the dog might be over stimulated. we do not know for sure but what I do know is that that performance as far as bite quality goes is not very good when compared to dogs that compete in sports where the bitting is judged.

I think we are all getting off track here we are discussing ingodds Albert not Ghandi.

Ghandi is (was) a great German dog. very beautiful and has produced some great offsprings. I also agree his bitework is good, and he does have good drive. We forget these showlines are not as crazy as the workinglines, which are mainly East German and Czech/Slovak lines which were initionally bred for their strong temperment. By the way I do like the workability of the workingline, and there are many beautiful dogs too. ALso don't think you can compare them to the showline, no comparison. workingline will always win. I also do have a Ghandi grandson, big, powerful, and lots of drive.

I think the biggest difference here and why the showlines do so poorly in schutzhund , is because the ones that show them for the most part, are just interested in showing them. They can give 2 shits about schutzhund trials, these dogs (which is a shame) are use mainly as breeding stock here in the USA. They are locked up in a kennel and come out to breed or show, plus the occasional bitework. Not a very interesting life for these beautiful dogs, can see why they get bored and not interested in biting. I also agree we have to stop making excuses for these dogs, bottomline their bite sucks. There are a few exceptions, but most would never make it in a schutzhund trial.

BTW

Ghandi just died on Dec.1st, 2008.

Does anyone else wonder what the original poster has decided? They haven't posted since the early stages of this thread.

Sorry friends, but some of you judge about the working abilities of dogs they never met or only saw once in their life. I don´want to question your experience in Schutzhund sport, for sure you are training and titling German Shepherds for years...

A dog only shows what it learned - you only see the result of this learning process.

Do you really believe all of these georgious working line dogs were born as champions??? A LOT of the top working dogs show a LOT of faults during their youth - handled and trained with care ( when you see them they are at least 3 years old ) they have the possibility to develop  and mature...

Did you ever ask yourself why there are always the same handlers during the years that have success?

These TOP handlers exactly know what they do:

1. Mostly they don´t buy puppies but young adults...

2. As soon as a dog doesn´t fit they sell it...

3. These dogs normally do there first trial in the age of 2...

4. They have TOP decoys and training abilities...

5. They know exactly HOW to train...

These people are able to make a NORMAL dog look great, but it´s still a NORMAL dog, as spectator you only won´t be able to SEE its faults...

This theme is difficult for me to explain in a foreign language - I really hope you are able to understand my intention:

Not every dog, that shows faults is a bad dog

Not every dog that achieves 300 points is great dog

Have a nice day!

No working line dog is ever born a champion, and the people that do the Schutzhund abd have titled dogs as you say know this better than anybody because they know what it takes in terms of work,skill, commitment, and dog, to acheive these points. Sure the professional  handlers pick and discard dogs that have the needed components to get to the top....but ask these top handlers if "most" dogs are capable of reaching the top with their decoys and knowledge. And 95% of them won't even touch a showline dog to "attempt" to make the vaunted "300". So your concept has merit, but what does it prove, other than there are some working lines in less than capable hands that "could" be on the podium.....but I think that most sport people already know that........but there is a reason that these same "top" trainers don't make a living trying to put these showlines on the podium.

I didnt see anyone else answer, so, the reason her got insufficient at NASS 2007 in St. Louis (I was there) was because they just about chased him off of the field. I was embarrased for him. It was disgraceful. There was no fight in that dog whatsoever and he didnt look to me like he intended to DO anything. It was sickening. Ive seen some of his progeny and have been mostly more imporessed by the females than the males. There is alot of variation in some of the litter I have seen as well. Im glad Im not the only one who heard about his hips, too. For the record, someone stated that he has produced dogs with good hips. That is true. He has also produced some displastic ones. 2 that I know of persoanlly and others that I have heard about. The bottom line is, the dog isnt being shown anymore because they finally got him to pass a protection test for once and they're not going to risk losing face by trying again.

Gustav, you wrote:

...they know what it takes in terms of work,skill, commitment, and dog...

The top handlers know, but a lot of people discussing about dogs on this board don´t know...

These people either don´t even Schutzhund title their own dogs or don´t know anything about the dogs they condemn.

I like working dogs, I LOVE good looking AND good working dogs, but I hate people talking about things they are not able or not willing to do by themselves.

Instead of judging about others these people should watch their own dogs with open eyes, they would find faults enough ...

Artillery, you are basically correct in what you just said about Albert. But I do have to say and I was also there in St. Louis, and part of that team (unfortunately). He didn't have any fight in him, but it is a fact that he did have a piece of wood inbedded in his mouth, no excuses to me that should of been found before the show, but it did affect him there. He is not a dog that likes the heat, and I also believe is not interested in doing the bitework.  

I know story about his hips, also correct. finally yes he was retired from showing because he got his coveted VA rating, so why show him again. I will say that yes there are a few of his offsprings that don't get the "a normal, but quite a few more do. I actually have one of his male pups who is a 19 months "Oso" and has his "a" normal hip rating from the SV. He also has lots of drive, and loves to bite, and yes at times can be a bit tough to handle for a new inexperienced owner like myself, but he is a good, friendly, family dog too, also not dog aggresive. He will stand his ground when challenged by another dog, but has never been aggressive to another dog unless challenged. I have raised him with other males, he never was aggressive to any of them especially puppies. He will actually let another dog come up and take a bone from him, he loves kids too.

Artillery is not correct and I have a very close-up video to prove it. Albert was not chased off the field. He simply didn’t have the fight drive in him, for whatever reason, on that day. The video clearly shows he always kept himself between the helper and the handler and he maintained this posture the entire time the helper was walking off the field while the handler was talking to the judge. I am in no way affiliated with Mittelwest at all nor am I trying to drum up excuses for Albert. Yes, he was INSUFFICIENT that day, he fell off the sleeve and didn’t re-engage, but by no means was he intimidated and chased off the field by that helper. To call him a "disgrace" because he was insufficient in this performance is a pretty strong word to be using. Maybe “disappointment” but not “disgraceful”.

It amazes me how many people on this forum are so overly focused on just one aspect of the total dog. They don’t even try to look at the complete picture of the dog before making their final judgments. The Protection phase is the end all for most of them. I disagree with this notion. Every dog has their strengths and weaknesses. You have to look at the total dog and weigh these strengths and weaknesses against each other instead of just focusing on one aspect of them. Albert has a lot of other strengths that haven’t even been mentioned here because nobody can get past his weakness in the protection phase. IMO, we are lucky to have a dog like Albert in this country. We have plenty of “high-drive”, “balls to the walls” dogs here but not near as many that are as close to the standard as Albert is.