Does anyone no how INGODDS ALBERTS bitework? - Page 11

I didnt say he was chased off, I said he just about was. That dog had no fight. Im sorry, but you could remove half the bottom jaw from my dog and he'd still find a way to hang on. When a dog falls off and then regrips, that is disapointing. When they fall off and stay off, that is disgraceful in my opinion. The bottom line is, whatever good points the dog has wont be brought up in this discussion. Why? Because the original poster asked about bitework. Not about how pretty he is, or how nice he gaits or how manly he stands. It's his jaws and heart that count in this discussion and neither were working that day.

Susie, when I referenced "they know what it takes in terms of work, commitment,etc", I prefaced that statement with the "people that do Schutzhund and have titled dogs" KNOW what it takes in terms of work, commitment,etc. And they do because if they have TITLED a dog it took the same work and commitment that top trainers put forth. These people and there are many on this board are well positioned to comment about working abilities....as well as people that do other demanding dog sport. Now people that DON'T train their dogs are ill equipped to make some of the assessment they comment on, but you don't have to be a TOP trainer with a top decoy.

That would have been a great response Artillery if we were only 20 posts into this conversation. But it is not quite that simple. It has been well established long ago in this thread that his bite work wasn’t his greatest strength. This discussion has evolved into a discussion of the total dog of INGODD’S ALBERT long before I started adding my two cents. Anytime someone chooses to use the words “disgraceful”, “sickening”, and “chased off the field” to describe a dog’s performance it conjures images in the reader’s mind that does not accurately describe what really happened at NASS 2007. He was not even “just about was” chased off the field. He didn’t even cower. It was obvious something was bothering Albert that day but it wasn’t lack of courage or fear as your previous posts are trying to imply. I think you should reconsider how you judge the protection routine and reserve words like “disgraceful” and “sickening” for dog’s that are actually “chased off the field” because that IS the epitome of failure in the performance test.

maywood,

You can say what you wish. You have your opinion, I have mine. Simple as that. divmstr1988 was there too and didnt nearly have the same reaction to my views that you did. Why so personal? Im not the only one from my group who saw the protection test in this way. Again, in my OPINION, he wasn't far from taking off! Im sorry but Im not going to change that view. I saw what I saw, you saw what you saw. Did we each see what we wanted to see? Maybe. Want 2 differant stories, ask 2 differant people. Works every time. BUT, I stand by what I said. I never said he shouldnt be bred or slammed his conformation, pedigree or anything else. I don't care one way or another who uses him. It wont be me, even though, as I also stated, Ive seen some nice female out of him. The OP wanted to know about bitework and  I provided the time and place I saw him and my account of it. Simple as that. As a matter of fact, Albert was one of the dogs I specifically wanted to watch that day. Hence, my obvious disgust (after hearing so much hype about his 'working ability' beforehand and having some people from the 'team' talk him up to me all morning) when he performed the way that he did. FYI, I also went to see Xoltan v. haus Brezel (also fell off), Ian v. Fidelius and Galaxy v. Ajaye. Ian and Galaxy were the only two that held on and showed me something that day. The OP can read your version just the same as mine and make his/her own decisions. I for one, will be content to leave it at that.

well let me just interject her for a minute, I know this post is about Alberts bitework, but maybe those who are interested in the whole dog and breeding to him may want to see the post MAD added yesterday on "Albert", talks about how much he loves to breed.

all I'll say is I wish I could get as much as he gets offered. but it's true

I am not trying to get personal at all Artillery. I am reading your posts in a thoughtful manner and am calmly responding in kind, so please don’t read too much into my posts. I am just disagreeing with your much harsher assessments because I hear a lot of people who make the same mistake you are by saying all because a dog falls off the sleeve they are lacking in courage or are doing it out of fear. Most stop watching the performance at this point and start talking to their pals or what not. But I’m saying when this happens this is the time to really start paying attention because it is at this moment a dog’s temperament becomes especially revealing in how they handle themselves in relation to the helper. It is interesting you brought up Xoltan Haus Brezel because here we have a dog that not only just fell off the sleeve but actually did cower and retreat and probably would have been chased off the field had the helper continued his assault. My only point here is even though both dogs were INSUFFICIENT on that day; there was a huge difference in the manner in which they handled themselves after they fell off the sleeve. And we who were there as witnesses and will talk about it with those who weren’t have an extra-special duty in making sure that our assessments are correct if we are to truly have the betterment of the breed in mind. IMO Albert handled himself very courageously in defeat that day and I have no problems in my conscience by saying he brings much value to the betterment of the breed in this country.

The question posed is "How is Albert's bitework?"

And the answer I have to give, based on what I've seen (or SHOULD have seen or WOULD HAVE PREFERRED to have seen or what I have seen FROM OTHER DOGS) is that Albert's bitework is plainly and simply inconsistent at very best. A joke at the very worst. And not even a funny joke. The kind that makes you wince and immediately makes you wish you hadn't been there to witness it.

Sometimes he bites, other times, he has tongue infections/splinters/staples in his gums/headaches/cotton candy (which is it, by the way? An infection or a foreign body obstruction? And if it was an infection, pardon me for calling irresponsibility on letting him even compete while contending with that). I understand that this was a big show (trust me, I saw it firsthand) and all, but when you let a dog attempt and fail knowing there was a factor that may have contributed to that, you not only open yourself up to your dog seeming like a crap heap for the rest of its natural life, but you open yourself up to people thinking you're trotting out excuses like ponies in a show ring.

If bitework is a strong factor, Diangelo, I would make sure my female is a home-run hitter on the sleeve if nothing else before you consider Albert. He and the progeny may be eye candy, but beauty is worth bricks out on the field. Seducing the sleeve is not a component of the test.

Albert, to me, seems like a paper-champ. When I SEE him back up all those pretty letters surrounding his name (because in my opinion, he's not even that great-looking so he needs to be able to work), and when his progeny out there replicating his success, perhaps I'll think otherwise. But the hip situation is the first and foremost indication that I should take Albert with a grain of salt.

I absolutely agree. When they come off, that IS the time to watch. I just cannot, in good conscious, say that he showed courage that day. Did he turn tail and run? no. Did he move forward and work? no. He postured and he puffed up and then it was over. Why am I harsh on him? Because he is a VA. That means the BEST of the BEST. What I saw that day wasnt the best of anything. Could he redeem himself? Sure. The day I see him at a regional (or for that matter club) level trial where he repeats his SchH3, I'll publicly say I was wrong and misjudged him. I just cant get over the fact that a dog that fails a courage test (he earned an Insufficient, meaning that not only I, but the judge, felt he showed insufficient courage that day) could possibly be the best thing to have in mind for our breed. If thats what everyone is prepared to accept, then we'd be doing just what the working line folks accuse us of: excusing poor performance for the sake of looks. I for one, cannot go home happy with that. I'll take a solid V rated dog with great protection work any day.

Everyone just keeps offering additional proof, that if you want to maximize your breeding program....DO NOT LOOK to the dogs at a Sieger Show, even if they are a VA. (VAs mean nothing, they are handed out like tic tacs) Go to a TRIAL, a WORKING DOG trial...AND watch! Actually see all phases of what the dog offers, or does not offer. If the dog has a SchH3 after its name and only one SchH3, chances are there is a reason for that.

We are becoming our own worst enemies! We accept mediocre and flaunt it for brilliance. That does not work for me. I am surprised, it works for others. 

Amen DeesWolf. I love showline GSDs but only for what they are intended to be, not for what some are accepting them as/changing them into.