The Early German Shepherd - Page 9

?????????????. liz

WHO???????  LIZ

“Man shaped the dog to his own ends, and for several thousand years they have been our companions, helpers and guardians. A dog, treated with a little kindness, will be your friend for life. How do we reward them? By condemning many to a life of pain or an early death due to various inherited diseases. Do we not owe them more than this?”

Fred Lanting is one of many who’ve written repeatedly about the dangers of continued inbreeding: “A healthy, vigorous dog is much more desirable than a ‘pure’ one. Whenever possible, outcross! And encourage the national breed clubs to use genetic diversity in recognizing the value of the dogs and lines.”  

SV’s Messler was another and so was Kirschental’s Mr. Fuller in 2003: “I think a lot of the actual problems in health and working abilities are the result of repeated inbreeding on the same ancestors, as we see in the Leistungszucht too. I believe, and other experienced breeders will agree with me, that a litter without inbreeding (outcross) is more robust and there are fewer problems. You see the same in farm livestock breeding. We did breed a wonderful unity in type but what did it cost us?” 

Quanto Wienerau was born over forty years ago and ever since we’ve basically line-bred into the same genetic stew, one fairly closely knit to begin with. (I doubt the photograph here does him justice, but the sheer fact that he looks prima facie structurally more moderately correct, and closer to the Standard, than many of today’s dogs must on its own give food for thought!) And we’ve by now surely reached the point where the five-pedigree convention of what constitutes ‘line breeding’, ‘out-crossing’ or ‘scatter breeding’ – that is, within the same overused Wienerau genetic mix – is only self-deluding nonsense?

As said, by our own practices, as actively promoted by purebred clubs’ failure to impose limits on further inbreeding, we’re not so much advancing the dog, as actively harming it (as already similarly evidenced in a number of other breeds). I’m curious though: Despite all the personal expressions of canine affection, wonderful talks about medical issues, pet foods, unscrupulous breeders and isolated instances of animal cruelty, or even working versus show, does anybody here actually care? 


You are soooo cynical, Liz - how often has He himself not explained His many fulsome contributions?

WHAT?????????? LIZ

Chisum, I don't know what to make of your posts... you make a lot of sense, (at times) then you seem to introduce an unattractive dollop of condescension!  What's that about? 

I like straight "talkers", even if I don't agree with them!  So... I'm bowing out... trying to "work out" posts is too dreary.

Dear missbeeb, if you believe that my posts - ‘at times’ - do not make sense why haven’t you had the courtesy of informing me so at the time, whilst noting particular points of disagreement? And instead of oh-so-glibly resorting to personal remarks? I believe it is called constructive debate – a means of sharing and learning from our mutual experience and knowledge.

‘An unattractive dollop of condescension’? I remember a time when this forum included numerous truly experienced and caring dog people. Folk who offered solid, intelligent and informative threads, and I daresay lengthy worthwhile posts from which the rest learned - this venue once actually had a reason for being! Ever since it’s been increasingly swamped by dog—ignorant, brainless idiots; with at least ninety-five percent of content no more but useless, mindless crap! I’m not surprised that the real aficionados mostly dropped gradually by the wayside! And when a gent of Gustav’s experience does turn up, they can’t wait to exit fast enough because of the idiocy they’re automatically exposed to! (I well know how they must feel!)

Happy dog pics, ‘mutual love-ins’, and posting for its own sake parade/’substitute for substance. Posts exceeding two/three paragraphs are now simply too much too handle and has our superficial dears run for their life; whereas nothing must be allowed to overshadow their own ego-messaging presence or shallow input. You can’t fix stupid, but why so much of it! (I also had a quick peek through your own recent posts: thirty entries offering … nothing of any practical worth to anyone!)

Don’t know what to make of my posts? Either sharpen your sense of comprehension or try reading them as they stand. Or, again, try questioning whatever point fails your understanding. There’s also the problem of thread/post deletion should they cut too close to the bone, together with the instant knee-jerk personal attacks where they happen to offend some poster’s precious personal sensibilities – personal identity is all!
Seemingly the only response most are capable of!

My own thoughts are best expressed by a true dog person, one we simply don’t hear enough of: On his welcome page, this is what Oli has as a mission statement of the PDB: “The aim of pedigreedatabase is to be a tool for breeders. Hopefully we manage that and in doing so create a professional hub for people to get information about their favorite breed. To me, these words stand out: "aim", "tool", "breeders", "professional", and "information". I surely don't see anything about creating a "social hub". Do you? Repeated and deliberate failure to honor Oli's "mission" amounts to an insult to him and to his hard work.”

 

Additional to animal welfare concerns there’s another reason why maintaining genetic variety assumes crucial importance. Genetic diversity represents the very feedstock demanded by the breeder to effect improvement/change or rectify faults; without it he’s got no tools to work with - a ‘bottleneck’ or ‘one-way-street’. As one leading writer puts it: “Continued Inbreeding leads to rapid depletion of the genetic improvement margin. One illustration of a well meant but damaging breeding regime is the German Shepherd Dog, overly shrinking the gene pool of the world's most successful breed, with the ensuing inevitable consequences.”

Once the point is reached where improvement becomes well nigh impossible, doing more of the same is hardly a formula for breeding success: here, wanting more may well mean ending up with worse. As Messler pleaded: “No one-way street but overall selection of overall traits. The right combination is not extreme mated to extreme. Hochzucht must include Leistungszucht and vice versa. Sometimes it will be proved that the dog you want to exclude can be in fact the one that you needed the most. That means also more genetic variety.” 

And Fred Lanting states: “Outcrossing may be used to take advantage of a phenomenon known as heterosis. The idea is that a cross between two populations that have each become relatively homozygous will produce offspring that are heterozygous at many loci. Research shows that such crosses are often much heartier, healthier and productive than either of the parental lines. If the Germans don’t start tightening up on GSD hip and elbow joint quality, and loosening up on the narrow focus of the bloodlines used (working lines are almost as bad in this respect as show lines), they will soon paint themselves into a corner the way the Americans have. Inbreeding depression walks hand-in-hand with loss of heterozygosity and the lower utilitarian beauty of the modern German Shepherd Dog.”

Some other instances of inbreeding by Fred Lanting: Poodles are numerically among the worst afflicted with epilepsy; Dalmatians have a sack full of genetic disorders; many feel that the Siberian Husky is a genetic mess; some 80% of Doberman Pinschers are either affected by or carriers of the genes for von Willebrand’s Disease, which means that those fanciers are in a real bind, as elimination of all those dogs would mean disaster for the breed; copper toxicosis in the Bedlington; elbow dysplasia in the Rottie; PRA in the Irish Setter and Lab; PFK enzyme deficiency in American Cockers, English Springers, and Basenjis; dwarfism and hemophilias in the German Shepherd Dog, and many other examples of genetic disease are linked to the decrease in outcrossing over time.

Depressing? You said it!




 

You really are funny, quoting OLI, What the hell has all the political threads, that you love to chat on, got to do with the breed? Whilst your lengthy posts are very well put, there is nothing in them that we do not alredy know!!!!! So since you seem to have said it all, what is it you want us to contribute? You often find on a FORUM people chatting about other subjects, if we did not you would be very lonely since not many people like a smart arse know it all. Your arrogance astounds me. Good day sir, liz

Well... I'm sorry you think you're too important for our "useless, mindless crap" and I'm thrilled that you bothered to research my recent postings!  I'm up front Chisum and if I get it wrong, (we all do at times) I apologise. 

I don't think you've posted anything earth shattering, it's been pretty much "old hat" with a few extra adjectives, but some have been interesting nevertheless.  However, you never seem to miss an oppo' to have a wee dig at those you think know less! 

There have been quite a few threads of a serious nature, which have been interesting and productive IMO.  Clearly, they would be of little use to someone already knowing everything and prone to lecturing! 

Threads of a "lighter" nature are personal choice, you don't have to read them or contribute to them, I'm certain you won't be missed. 

I have never deleted one of my posts nor changed it in any "real" way... even when I've been wrong or out of order, my gaffs are there for all to see!