ethical breeding - Page 4

what's important IMO is, if the dog has the inborne instinkts or drives along with a absolutely solid self assured disposition. How well the dog was trained or if he was trained at all should not be of influence to the breeder. Naturally it gets harder and harder to look thu the dog the more and better he was trained.

I do think the AKC can start at least with having a requirment to have all registered litters out of parents that have the CGC (Canine Good Citizen) certification.  Perhaps even a certification form the vets for health.   The AKC cannot ask that every breed pass a sch 1, field trail or agility trail.  It is like someone said, a standardized test that would cover all.  The only one that exist is the CGC, a very BASIC obiedience and temperment test.

Some would follow this, however, there would still be those that that would breed and sell without papers as I am sure there are still those in Germany that do the same.   Americans look for bargins and don't always demand quality.  It has beome more common for GSD breeders to limit registration until proof of titiles in aquired.  They have to do this on there own due to the seperation of USA and AKC.  AKC really doesn't recognize USA and until recently, wanted nothing to do with Sch.  No government enity wants to be implicated in condoning teaching dogs to bite when public outrage at dog attacks are evident.  Just this past week, we had three children mauled, two killed by the family rot.   The public doesn't see "good training" they see loading a gun.  The average american cannot handle a high drive dog, let alone correct anagressive one.  heck, most can't control their kids.  Breed bans prevent these type of people from becoming bad owners.  They are not fair though because they prevent the people that can handle them for owning them.  Perhaps the dogs should not be lisenced, the owners should.  Again to much government control over personal lives.

The value of AKC papers to the pet buyer are really very little.  My pet male GSD never had his papers registered.  He was limited on his registration and my feelings were, why pay the AKC to register him if I am never going to breed him, show him ect.  He was to be my companion for life and home protector.  He did not need a piece of paper to make him worth more to me.    My sister had the same plan with her GSPointer, my brother with his rot.  Perhaps because we only had mutts growing up or becasue my grandfathers best cow dog was a stray GSD with no papers or pedigree, we saw no real value in papers for dogs that would never be breed.

I beleive it becomes the responsibility of the buyers to demand quality and know what they are buying.  If buyers only go to breeders that are active in some area of the dog world, whether it be certifying the dogs for therapy, sch training or other, breeders that want to be successful will comply.  AKC tries to educate the public in this, look for breeders that have done something with their dogs, that are active with them in some way and avoid the pet stores that keep the puppy mills going.  Couple that with bad press on Oprah and the evening news and we make some progress.  It is a slow process, but it will work if we continue on the path.

I for one have learned from this and will try to educate my buyers more in the future to what they are getting, what their responsibilites as owners really is.  Up to now, most of my buyers have been from the pet market.  Limited registration is a good place to start.

I think ideally all breeding GSDs would be titled, but this is not Germany and I don't think it is unethical to breed untitled dogs here... provided they are health tested, have good temperaments, and the breeder is knowledgable about the breed, it's issues, and it's standard.  From a non-Schutzhund trainers prospective here's what I see about the problem with Schutzhund training in the US.  First of all, clubs are few and far between and can be very different from one another.  In Germany if you don't like the local club there are others close by.  The clubs in the US seem to be aimed at the competitive handler... it seems they don't want members that just want to title their breeding stock (it seems frowned on), but rather those that have extreme dogs and may go all the way to the nationals.  If a member doesn't come to the club on a very regular basis they have rules where they can kick them out of the club.  It also seems (don't bite my head off) that GSD people in general get offended very easily.  If you are new to a club you best zip your mouth for a good two years or you will be exiled seems the rule of thumb.  Now, I'm sure there are many clubs that are not like this, I hope, but if clubs are turning away or turning off newbies to Schutzhund (not necessary the breed or breeding) then it doesn't help Schutzhund grow in the US, but it does help contribute to the lack of titles in the US. 

ADDED:  I agree with the previous poster that it would be great to at least require a CGC certification on all breeding stock.  No matter where you live, this should be possible.  For me, I like to know that the breeder works their dog in something, even if not titled, as this is how the breeder learns about what traits in temperament and drives that this individual dog possesses.

Yes the HGH (herding) title is also acceptable for breeding, KKl, breed survey and V conformation rating along with Schh1.

 

molly

Shepherdmom, I totally agree with you!  I have been trying to say that for years and people have such thick skulls, they can't seem to get it.  Even though I do plan on Caliber being my first schutzhund dog, I have never done anything like this with the rest.  They have earned , yes earned other titles that have to do with showing etc.  I am just as proud of those titles as I would be anything else that my dogs do! 

"Besides, who has time to mess with a bitch ??? THey have another job to do that is more important."

The breeder should have the time to mess with the bitch!! After all, she is passing on herself into the puppies too.

For me, as a puppy buyer, it's real simple... if you don't have the time to train and title your bitch, I don't have any interest in buying a puppy from you. After all, the titles legitimately earned are the proof of the training put into the breeding stock. In doing the training, a handler should be able to see their dogs strengths and weaknesses. Whether the dog can put up with the stress of training, has the character to push through the stress of trial day.

Jackie

"There will be always the ones that say, I can do whatever I wish to do, well fine with me. Just dont do it, when you are a member of a club with certain rules. This would be like beeing in a football team, but wanting to play basketball in pratice !When you (thats how it is in Germany) register your kennel name with the SV, you sign, aknowledge and state, that you will stick with the rules & regulations set out by the SV. As simple as that, if you cant or are not willing to obey that, for what ever reason, get out, dont be a part of that. Nobody forces you to do so. What I personally always find amusing is, that most of the peopel complaining are very keen to have these "Pink SV" papers, so even in their thinking they must stand for something desireble."

Not a problem Ulli, I am not, never have been and have no near future plans to belong to the SV, USA, WDA or any other Sch based club. I'm not going to make their problems, my problem. Thankfully in my country we are free to do things our own way. Not that I have any intetions of slacking what I feel is my own duty to the breed, to uphold a high standard, should I decide to breed. I would never want to live under any organization that doesn't allow AI, or that keeps lowering it's standards rather than tightening them.

Baldursmom,

I didn't know we were talking about you specificly.     I wasn't.

No Jeff I don't do Schutzhund,   I'm what some would call a hermit, antisocial.   I don't venture far very often.
I do believe in standards, and I have my own as well as the breed.   I'm not in it for money and I do not compete with others.
I do have three, well two wonderful dogs and one whos nice...lol   They serve me well.
I do have respect for those who live by standards and title their dogs, I know how hard and time consuming it is.  Not to mention the expense.   But still I say there is much left out and sometimes the dogs are not as important as human ego's and money when they are used as sport or competition.
Times change, the breed has changed, and this will continue as long as dogs become a thing instead of our companions.
There is much diversity in the GSD world and that includes people like me.  This is a good thing for the most part.
Yes people breed shit, and do it out of ignorance and they do it for money.
Thats why I want to know first hand what I would be breeding to and not go just on a piece of paper. 
I breed what I want...  thats true.   I do what I want.   I've always heard the different drums .

Ethical breeders are as rare as ethical people.   1 out of 10 is my rule.
Anyway I hope everyone appreciates the dogs they own.
Moons.