ethical breeding - Page 5

4pack,
I do too live in a free country , able to go where ever I want, to speak freely what is on my mind. And yes I could breed to whatever standart I would find apropriat. Not just when I decide to breed under the SV, which is my decision to join and therefore I have to obey their rules. If a lot of members have a problem with any rules, there are democratic steps established to change these rules. If these changes dont get the ok from the mayority, they fail. Pretty democratic, I would say. Again, even if it would be not that way, I made the choice to join, if I could not agree with it, why would I join ?

If the only fact that would prevent you from joining the SV, is that it is not allowed to AI, here you go, nobody will force you to. For me not really an argument, as I believe it to be better to keep as much as possible natural. And yup, not everything in the SV is gold, there is always room for improvement. But the mayor problem is, you say if you would breed you would do it to your standart, so says TwoMoons and probably a whole bunch of others. But yet, you talk about a standart. A standart should be equal to all and set for all. You will not be able to mantain our breed, when everybody, even with the best intensions, does what he/she feels to be the standart. Only if all involved play to the same tone, will you get results. I dont even want to know how many of the american pedigrees are really what they state. With a Sv pedigree you can be pretty much certain, that it describes what you got.  Ulli

Raymond,

which titles were you thinking of Sir, Lord, Baron ...........seriously, surely providing a GSD has passed the various health screening programs recommended, has been breed surveyed & has  an excellant charactor that ought to be what all breeders should be looking for, some' titled 'dogs as you put it, are not all they seem & some might not be entirely suitable for breeding just because they have a ''Title''

What breeders often forget is that MOST puppies bred go to pet homes, so surely any breeding program being embarked on by a RESPONSIBLE breeder should bear that point in mind, a huge proportion of dogs that end up in rescue are those bred by breeders forgetting that point ,those always aiming to breed the elusive strong drive, working dog or even show champion, great if ALL the litters go to appropriate working homes, not so good for joe public wanting a super FAMILY pet

Standards,
I don't want a oversized dog or a tea cup,  I don't want a panda or a blue or a wolf look alike.
I expect a dog free from health issues including allergies or a dog who can't survive on road kill or whatever they could catch on their own.  A dog must be hearty and strong, able to survive the worst of situations.  I don't care how hard a dog can bite a slieve thats offered, but I do care if the dog will protect whats his, including me and my family.   Mainly I want a dog who thinks and has intelligence. 

Endurance and agility are important to me as well as obedience and courage.  I don't believe Schutzhund really measures courage.   And the routine doesn't show intelligence.  And I expect my dog to know the difference between a simple stranger and a threat without me there to decide for him.   The tracking is great, but I do that differently too.

I don't want a couch potatoe, and I don't want a dog whos wound so tight it can't just be a dog.  

I would say my standards pretty much parallel the standards set down by the originator of the breed, remembering that those were set down in a different time, a different world.   Much has been lost in the way we use our dogs today.

The SV has the best system going I agree, but I find it lacking in many respects.   The AKC is nothing but a database for numbers.  I find it lacking as well.    The gold standard for me is living with my dogs and knowing them as I know myself.
The true test of a dog comes without warning in a real situation and can only be measure in real terms.  

The breed standards are an excellent guide line but are not the only thing to consider.   I would say I go beyond those standards to include my own.  

And you can't judge a book by its cover, ya gotta read the book first.

Think outside the box and anything is possible.

Breed a little diversity and not just the lines from the past.   Don't overlook faults in favor of one or two chosen traits.

Most of all remember what a good dog is suposed to be. 

Moons.

 

Ulli, I understand where your coming from, but the things I want changed, would never be voted on. The majority of SV members are show line people and not many of them are going to want to impliment the palisade back into the routine, or harder courage tests. I value real world tracking more than foot step tracking baited with food. Any human eye/nose could see the prints or follow the food trail to the next article. I have nothing against the sport, it's just not for me. I wouldn't enjoy doing this day after day and I doubt my dog would either. I see beautiful OB in Schutzhund dogs and not a whole lot of anything else, can be counted on.

Oh by the way...my "personal" standard would be titled in any bitework venue, herding titles and/or a "real job" certified Police K-9, Military working dog, certified tracking or bomb dog. I figure if a dog can actually land himself a job, he is worthy to pass on his goods.

I agree a working dog doing his job day in day out is certainly earning his place at the table.    Living the life for real, not just doing a routine.    Thats something you can measure for real and its something that has to be consistant over time.
Given that all health issues are addressed I agree a working dog is worthy of passing on his genes.
As long as they can clockout at quiting time and just be mans best friend.
Fetch my slippers and open a beer, no farting indoors and not help himself to the leftovers on the table.
Low maintainance.

Well yea, I think the health clearances go without saying. No unsound dog is going to hold up too long.

 Oh boy, lots of posts since I last was here.

Quote:  How well the dog was trained or if he was trained at all should not be of influence to the breeder

WTF ?? You can be the greatest trainer on the planet, but you will never be able to polish a turd.

Quote: Just curious, I have always thought that a dog could have a herding title, or be a certified police dog, & be koer'd according to the SV rules; that the main concern was that the dog be able to prove it's suitability to work, so that dogs that really do work, & mightn't have the time for the ScH titles were not punished for being the real deal ...is that true? jackie harris

I have no problem with something along these lines, you are still out there with your dog many many hours and will see what you have, as opposed to just guessing.

Quote: The breeder should have the time to mess with the bitch!! After all, she is passing on herself into the puppies too.

Some of the nicest producing bitches I have ever known do not have a title. They are trained, but again, their importance is in the box. It is a waste to have a good producing bitch on the trial field. What she produces is of greater importance. 

Quote: I do think the AKC can start at least with having a requirement to have all registered litters out of parents that have the CGC.

It should be the breed clubs demanding requirements, not the AKC. The CGC is absolutly pathetic and should not be a requirement for breeding. I have seen many dogs pass that were not suitable for breeding. The standards need to be raised higher than this silly test. Many of the CGC testers have little idea of what a proper response should be, just like the temperament testers. 

Quote: I would never want to live under any organization that doesn't allow AI, 

Why ??? There are interesting things to be said about a bitch that cannot breed normally, and people will just use AI as an "out" for having a bitch like this. Curious as to your thoughts?

 

Quote:  No Jeff I don't do Schutzhund,   I'm what some would call a hermit, antisocial.   I don't venture far very often.

This is what I would be curious about, how does the anti social make a sound decision on breeding ??? I am not slamming you, just curious.

Quote: I do believe in standards, and I have my own as well as the breed.   I'm not in it for money and I do not compete with others.

This is another myth, I would like to see put to rest. From what I have seen over the years, the best do not compete with others, they compete against themselves. Fear of competition, or not having the guts to put it on the line and show what your dogs can do would be another reason I would be

 

The SV rules may not be perfect, but at least it's something.   Sure a "good" dog can be bred without a title.  But, what I don't like to see is generations of dogs without titles being bred.  For my own needs I prefer a dog that is from titled stock. 

I'm not a breeder, but would like to breed my female someday and would still be following the SV rules when she is bred.   In addition to other health certs done here.   I just feel like I'm doing my homework, by having the titles, hip/elbow certs, show rating, breed survey, etc. etc.   

.................................The CGC is absolutly pathetic and should not be a requirement for breeding.

Agree here.   LOL    My dogs have it, but more or less did it on them to help promote schutzhund.  That hey look, my schutzhund dogs have a CGC/TDI as well.   As far as standing alone as a requirement.   No way.   

Just my two cents.   FWIW

 

 

 

 

CGC test, for a shepherd, I agree and the program is a joke with petsmart flunkies administering the test,  but it is a start.  With the multiple breeds out there, what so you do to prove a chihuahua is worthy of being breed?  Winning in the show ring?  We all know where that gets a breed.

No simple answers here.  AKC is a multibreed organization, unlike the SV.

Breed clubs, lets look at those for sporting dogs like labs.  Most field dogs that earn titles have way too much drive for a family pet.  Same for a really good GSP.  Should all newfs be from stock that have worked in the water saving lives??  What about pugs, what the hell are they for anyhow???

Maybe breeding should never be done for the pet market unless they are little companion dogs and all others only breed for the original work they were developed for.  It would really comprimise the pet population.

As I said, its a very complicated subject.