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by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 16:02
Jeff, just for you...
ROTFLMAO!
Missbeeb, I PM"d you a link...
ROTFLMAO!
Missbeeb, I PM"d you a link...
by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 16:02
Oh, HOW some of these threads make me wish I was a good cartoon artist.
SS
SS
by SitasMom on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
"So, which dog do you want in your home? The one who 'accidentally' rips its owner up for [reportedly] 80 stitches, or the one who can control its drives enough to pull back at the last second? And, which, in your opinion, is the better representative of the breed?"
The one who can control its drives enough to pull back at the last second - is the breed standard.........
Back in the days of Max German Shepherd was bred to to gave good judgment, and that judgment was supposed to gave been stronger then its drive.........not so anymore.
A working dog is of no use if it cannot think and control itself, instead its an emergency waiting to happen.
BTW - I know nothing about the actual bit the new owner incident, so I cannot comment on that dog. My statements are of all GSD's in general.
The one who can control its drives enough to pull back at the last second - is the breed standard.........
Back in the days of Max German Shepherd was bred to to gave good judgment, and that judgment was supposed to gave been stronger then its drive.........not so anymore.
A working dog is of no use if it cannot think and control itself, instead its an emergency waiting to happen.
BTW - I know nothing about the actual bit the new owner incident, so I cannot comment on that dog. My statements are of all GSD's in general.
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
Okay, I accept that we may not have enough info to make a good call on this, though my gut tells me that what I said above about scent is right. The Youtube link in one of the other threads DOES show some questionable training techiques being used by Ines's handler and the decoy.
If someone wants to repost that link, please? I don't have time to find it right now.
If someone wants to repost that link, please? I don't have time to find it right now.
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
Sunsilver,
YOU said it :"out of control" kid. A two year old. If a parent cannot control a TWO YEAR OLD any better than that, maybe they should re-think having anything but a cat.
As for temperament with children, my late Sch2 bitch was a hellion on the field. She was not raised with children and had very , very limited contact with kids. Once, leaving the training field, after fighting the helper and carrying the sleeve from the field, she encountered a 7-8 year old boy in the parking lot before reaching the car. I was waaaay behind her and my heart froze. The kid was a stranger, not with anyone who was training. (The training was behind a middle school at the time). Here she is, pumped up from the bitework and here's this kid!! He had an ice cream cone, too--and she loved ice cream. He ran toward her. I thought the best I can hope for is that she takes his cone. Nope. She dropped the sleeve , sat next to him and just licked his face. I still wonder why she didn't try to steal his ice cream--she'd sure have done it, had it been mine!
The point is, she knew a kid when she saw it, knew he was not a threat of any kind and, perhaps, cut him some slack because it was a kid. She never did anything in mid-air, though.
Quote from Sunsilver:
To drag this back on track again...
So, how many of you agree that Inges does NOT have a correct temperment?
I know opinions are going to differ on this, but IMO, any dog that bites its owner, and causes that much damage, does not have a good temperment, even if it WAS a 'mistake'. The dog can smell, can't it? Then, catching its owner's scent in the seconds before the bite should have been enough to either prevent the bite, or inhibit it to the point where it caused no or very little damage.
I don't know enough about this dog from one incident and vid showing debatable training to comment on his temperament, and whether it is correct or not. Neither do you.
YOU said it :"out of control" kid. A two year old. If a parent cannot control a TWO YEAR OLD any better than that, maybe they should re-think having anything but a cat.
As for temperament with children, my late Sch2 bitch was a hellion on the field. She was not raised with children and had very , very limited contact with kids. Once, leaving the training field, after fighting the helper and carrying the sleeve from the field, she encountered a 7-8 year old boy in the parking lot before reaching the car. I was waaaay behind her and my heart froze. The kid was a stranger, not with anyone who was training. (The training was behind a middle school at the time). Here she is, pumped up from the bitework and here's this kid!! He had an ice cream cone, too--and she loved ice cream. He ran toward her. I thought the best I can hope for is that she takes his cone. Nope. She dropped the sleeve , sat next to him and just licked his face. I still wonder why she didn't try to steal his ice cream--she'd sure have done it, had it been mine!
The point is, she knew a kid when she saw it, knew he was not a threat of any kind and, perhaps, cut him some slack because it was a kid. She never did anything in mid-air, though.Quote from Sunsilver:
To drag this back on track again...
So, how many of you agree that Inges does NOT have a correct temperment?
I know opinions are going to differ on this, but IMO, any dog that bites its owner, and causes that much damage, does not have a good temperment, even if it WAS a 'mistake'. The dog can smell, can't it? Then, catching its owner's scent in the seconds before the bite should have been enough to either prevent the bite, or inhibit it to the point where it caused no or very little damage.
I don't know enough about this dog from one incident and vid showing debatable training to comment on his temperament, and whether it is correct or not. Neither do you.
by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
I wouldn't have a dog that didn't instantly know the difference between a child and an adult, and behave accordingly. IMExp they just seem to know instinctively, raised with kids or not. Balanced temperament is everything.
SS
SS
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
AMEN, SS. Of course, I tried to say similar in another thread and was told that I have never done bitework, lol. Interesting how people can be so in denial as to defend improper temperament b/c they've created it....all for points.
Case in point, my dogs have never been around kids, really. I don't think my oldest male had ever met a toddler. I was at my friend's house w/him and she insisted I bring him in. Now, he's stable and under control, if not friendly. So, I can bring him anywhere, and he will accept what he is asked to accept. I do not allow strangers to pet him, however. Anyway, her 1.5yr old was trying to walk to the door, and tripped and fell, right on top of Caleb. The dog didn't move. My friend was shocked. I wasn't shocked, b/c I know my dog, but I was surprised that he was as still as he was. I would've expected him to at least be startled and maybe stand up and move, but he just waited for the toddler to get up and walk away.
Case in point, my dogs have never been around kids, really. I don't think my oldest male had ever met a toddler. I was at my friend's house w/him and she insisted I bring him in. Now, he's stable and under control, if not friendly. So, I can bring him anywhere, and he will accept what he is asked to accept. I do not allow strangers to pet him, however. Anyway, her 1.5yr old was trying to walk to the door, and tripped and fell, right on top of Caleb. The dog didn't move. My friend was shocked. I wasn't shocked, b/c I know my dog, but I was surprised that he was as still as he was. I would've expected him to at least be startled and maybe stand up and move, but he just waited for the toddler to get up and walk away.
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
Shelley,
I agree! The same bitch demonstrated that later, when she met a friend's children at their home on a lake. The bitch had never met these kids before. The older girl, then 4, wanted to show me the frogs in the rushes. I was TERRIFIED of frogs, but did't want the child to see that . We walked out on this floating platform and my bitch came along. She immediately decided that she did not want the child near the water. She kept getting between the little girl and the edge of the platform, then decided to pull the girl back to terra frima by grasping the back of her pants. The kid "got it." She ran to the house, telling her mother ,' Mommy, Mommy, Magic tried to save me....just like Lassie!" That incident is what convinced the family to get a gsd as the family pet, rather than a bazenji that the mother was inclined to get. As you said, "balanced temperament is everything."
btw--the mother was one of many judges that met that bitch and were impressed with her intelligence and temperament. They knew I trained in schutzhund and saw photos of her doing bitework. To those judges at any rate, and they ranged from municipal court to state supreme court justices, "schutzhund" meant the very nice, pretty dog they met at various receptions, who politely greeted people at the chief justice's house, and was nice and well-behaved to small children.
I agree! The same bitch demonstrated that later, when she met a friend's children at their home on a lake. The bitch had never met these kids before. The older girl, then 4, wanted to show me the frogs in the rushes. I was TERRIFIED of frogs, but did't want the child to see that . We walked out on this floating platform and my bitch came along. She immediately decided that she did not want the child near the water. She kept getting between the little girl and the edge of the platform, then decided to pull the girl back to terra frima by grasping the back of her pants. The kid "got it." She ran to the house, telling her mother ,' Mommy, Mommy, Magic tried to save me....just like Lassie!" That incident is what convinced the family to get a gsd as the family pet, rather than a bazenji that the mother was inclined to get. As you said, "balanced temperament is everything."
btw--the mother was one of many judges that met that bitch and were impressed with her intelligence and temperament. They knew I trained in schutzhund and saw photos of her doing bitework. To those judges at any rate, and they ranged from municipal court to state supreme court justices, "schutzhund" meant the very nice, pretty dog they met at various receptions, who politely greeted people at the chief justice's house, and was nice and well-behaved to small children.
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
Mystere, I totally agree. Why is it that your example of a "sport dog" is so vastly different than what GARD is trying to tell me is normal in the video thread? I think we are very quickly losing sight of what these dogs are supposed to be. I'm not talking about watering them down at all; just talking about not condoning improper, unbalanced temperament for the sole goal of greater points on the field. If we are picky enough, and try hard enough in our breeding endeavors, we CAN have both. Not easy, but not impossible. JMO.
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Jenn, a great, big AMEN to that!!!!
That was the ideal the Captain set out for the breed: a balanced, well-rounded dog.
That was the ideal the Captain set out for the breed: a balanced, well-rounded dog.
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