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by Uber Land on 14 March 2009 - 22:03
lovdemdogs must be in the UK. the people I talked to who squealed about the limited reg. were in the UK. they stated livers were "rare" over there and they should be allowed to be sold with full reg. and be bred.
by GSDXephyr on 15 March 2009 - 00:03
That second picture really shows the differences in the two pups well, thanks for sharing it. They look like great healthy pups. And the color is appealing, even if it isn't correct :o) I agree with what others have said, this, and the panda thread going on right now, have been really great open discussions with people sharing unexpected breeding results without being afraid of being open about it.. nice work.
Heather
Heather
by mahon on 15 March 2009 - 01:03
That is the whole reason for posting in the first place. To teach, to learn and to debate. As Max V Stephonitz said in his book there are no bad dogs, just bad colors. I interpret that as to say the dog is still of good quality if he or she is of good quality no matter the color. The only issue is the colors that the breed standard says are fovorable to set a standard to go by. In the development process we had many colors and started weeding out the colors that were not preffered. As time went on they made adjustments in structure and size and so on. The recessive colors or faded genes are not up to the breed standard. Not to say they dont exist. Or that we will not produce them. We as breeders may challenge the breed standard if we so choose. All though we should strive to breed for the correct standard as a guidline to follow. We dont want to produce coyotes or wolves or collies otherwise we would be breeding them. As a breeder one should strive for perfection and settle for healthy functional dogs of good character. That can be trained and socially sound with a big heart and willingness to please and protect and perform the tasks that we ask of them. I know in my 46 years I have seen some outstanding animals and some pathedic excuses of a german shepherd but I have never seen the perfect one. Some that are close maybe but not perfect.
I did not go back into the breed with a couple of $200.00 German Shepherds to start with and took time to study the lines that appealled to me and my eye. I looked at the siblings the dams the sire and grand sires and so on. Most of these dogs I did not know. I new a lot of the great and great great grandsires. Now I know a lot of dirt has been swept under the rug while I was away. And I am sure I will find more then a liver color gene if I look hard enough.
20 years ago a white spot on the chest the size of a tennis ball was fround upon and rarely seen in a conformation show. Feet that had white going up the foot past the tip of the toe was a no no.
Well I'll stop there no since in getting on a soap box I say to one self. Good dogs are good dogs the world around no matter the color. Just dont intentionally breed outside the standard. We will produce plenty without haveing to try.
Just my thoughts, mahon
I did not go back into the breed with a couple of $200.00 German Shepherds to start with and took time to study the lines that appealled to me and my eye. I looked at the siblings the dams the sire and grand sires and so on. Most of these dogs I did not know. I new a lot of the great and great great grandsires. Now I know a lot of dirt has been swept under the rug while I was away. And I am sure I will find more then a liver color gene if I look hard enough.
20 years ago a white spot on the chest the size of a tennis ball was fround upon and rarely seen in a conformation show. Feet that had white going up the foot past the tip of the toe was a no no.
Well I'll stop there no since in getting on a soap box I say to one self. Good dogs are good dogs the world around no matter the color. Just dont intentionally breed outside the standard. We will produce plenty without haveing to try.
Just my thoughts, mahon
by luvdemdogs on 15 March 2009 - 04:03
Xeph and London Town,
While ad hominem may win you points with the lesser educated, it doesn't work with me. Rather than call me names - perchance you might explain WHY you think livers should not be encouraged and bred to add to the breed and the kennel club standard.
Your posts indicate the same kind of unthinking dogma that religious fanatics demonstrate.
When I see those humpbacked abominations that are now accepted as a breed standard - I have to question who is making the rules.
While ad hominem may win you points with the lesser educated, it doesn't work with me. Rather than call me names - perchance you might explain WHY you think livers should not be encouraged and bred to add to the breed and the kennel club standard.
Your posts indicate the same kind of unthinking dogma that religious fanatics demonstrate.
When I see those humpbacked abominations that are now accepted as a breed standard - I have to question who is making the rules.
by london town on 15 March 2009 - 05:03
Lovdemdogs,
Do you really have to be told why, it states in the standard that whites blues and livers are not the correct colour , if you wish to buy and trial one go for it, but why breed in a fault that you can see right in front of your eyes. JMO
As for your other comment each to there own. As for your comment ( lesser educated) I feel that unnecessary or are you far above the rest of us here
London Town
Do you really have to be told why, it states in the standard that whites blues and livers are not the correct colour , if you wish to buy and trial one go for it, but why breed in a fault that you can see right in front of your eyes. JMO
As for your other comment each to there own. As for your comment ( lesser educated) I feel that unnecessary or are you far above the rest of us here
London Town
by luvdemdogs on 15 March 2009 - 05:03
"it states in the standard that whites blues and livers are not the correct colour "
Why are you so quick to accept that the kennel clud is right? Saying "because the kennel club says so" is NOT a good reason. I'm encouraging you to look deeper. WHY not challenge the standard, instead of blindly accepting it as correct?
I am not far above anyone - but having an intelligent discussion is lowered with the use of ad hominem.
Why are you so quick to accept that the kennel clud is right? Saying "because the kennel club says so" is NOT a good reason. I'm encouraging you to look deeper. WHY not challenge the standard, instead of blindly accepting it as correct?
I am not far above anyone - but having an intelligent discussion is lowered with the use of ad hominem.
by Sherman-RanchGSD on 15 March 2009 - 16:03
He is a living creature and nature is mightier then you or I. Neuter the animal and be glad it is hopefully something as simple as color as apposed to any other number of maladies that can happen in breeding animals.
The sable in the rear also has an interesting coat pattern reminiscent of many years ago my husband I were give a pup from a litter that had a silvering over his whole body much like the pup in the Willis book examples... no papers, beautiful parents, wonderful pup... our friends gave to us... his coat changed and by 8 months he was a normal looking saddle back black and brown German Shepherd his nose, eyes, etc were all black. Anyhow..it was just interesting... and I have never since seen any like that..think that was the late 70's.
Certainly these are not things you breed for..but to condemn or try to shoot others down because life happens is over kill.
From a breeding standpoint I do want to know about such things, am not ashamed to share with others and would value knowing further outcome in the future. The proble is some people always want to scream that the sky is falling..and also there are others that want to put heads in the sand.
Debi
www.webstarts.com/sherman-ranch
www/webstarts.com/ironfistcreations
by Sherman-RanchGSD on 15 March 2009 - 16:03
Oh the other pcitres came up of pus at young age nursing.. i can see the oddity I spoke of with the dog I had in the 70s was not in any of those pups..just the livers. He was a gift so I have no ideal what his bloodlines were and he was just a pet so it didnt matter to us.
Debi
Debi
by pod on 15 March 2009 - 17:03
Just got to throw my two penneth in. I can see both sides of this argument. I certainly don't advocate breeding for colour in the way that has been dictated by the showring in recent decades. All we see these days is a sea of glamourous saddle marked black & reds with very few of the sables, bicolours, blacks etc that used to be around. It seems that colour has become the first priority in breeding for the ring.
That said, I certainly don't think breeding specifically for non standard colours is any better for the breed but if, say a liver sable happened to be of good quality with good health, then better that than use a dog of correct colour but inferior in other criteria.
That said, I certainly don't think breeding specifically for non standard colours is any better for the breed but if, say a liver sable happened to be of good quality with good health, then better that than use a dog of correct colour but inferior in other criteria.
by Marisa on 15 March 2009 - 20:03
Well, he may be bad news for breeding and genetics, but I think he's darling. It's really sad to think about the possibility of puppies being destroyed just to keep the presence of that recessive trait a secret. Kudos to you for being honest and up-front about it! There are plenty of people out there like me who love GSDs but have no interest in breeding and who would have been thrilled to take those puppies with spay/neuter contracts. My own personal feeling is that structure, health, and temperament are far more important than color, BUT the standard is still the standard and as long as it is what it is then I agree that they shouldn't be introduced back into the gene pool. That being said, there's absolutely no good reason the ones that do pop up shouldn't have happy lives as cherished pets.
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