Speechless - Page 5

it does not make your argument any less circular.  The color white does not affect the "working versatility, endurance and working competency, especially lack of sex characteristics and temperament traits contrary to the German Shepherd Dog such as apathy, weak nerves or overexcitability, shyness; lack of vitality or willingness to work; monorchids and cryptorchids and testicles too small; a soft or flabby constitution and a lack of substance"  ... "fading pigment; blues, albinos (with complete lack of pigmentation, e.g. pink nose, etc.) .......); over and under size; stunted growth; high-legged dogs and those with an overloaded forechest; a disproportionaltely short, too refined or coarse build; a soft back, too steep a placement of the limbs and anything depreciating the reach and endurance of gait; a muzzle that is too short, blunt, weak , pointed or narrow and lacks strength; an over-or undershot bite or any other faults of dentition, especially weak or worn teeth; a coat that is too soft, too short or too long; a lack of undercoat; hanging ears, a permanently faulty ear carriage or cropped ears; a ringed, curled or generally faulty tail set; a docked tail (stumpy) or a naturally short tail."-i ergo your argument remains without merit. 

Color, and color alone makes 0 difference in the quality of the dog. 

Actually the color very much does effect the the conformation.  The overwhelming majority of those  who deliberately breed for off colors and deliberatly breed dogs that  would automatically DQ  for whatever reason, have no interest in anything but the  odd color, as evidenced by the disgusting conformation of their so called breed quality stock (like in the dogs linked by the OP).  Even if they wanted to, they cannot show their dogs against other GSDs, so dogs from their breeding programs are not judged by qualified GSD judges and other experts to determine whether or not the dogs even meet the bare minimum GSD standard.   The dogs cannot even be breed surveyed.  They are not even shown alongside their  acceptably colored counterparts to determine if the breeder is on the right track with regards to the standard. 

Same thing with working ability.  I have yet to hear of off colorbreeders  who are actively competing in any grip or herding sport with their breed stock, so they have no clue whether or not their dogs or the  offspring of their dogs have any working ability, nor do they know if these same dogs have the correct temperament.  

All the really great breeders with the best kennels don't have such overblown egos as to think they don't have to take their dogs before  judges to get an unbiased opinion of the pros and cons of their breed stock.  They also want to compare what they are breeding with other great breeders to be sure they are on the right track with his own breeding program.  They are smart enough to know there is always a degree of kennel blindness when it comes to your own stock, which is why it is so important to compare and to get  the opinions of those who are qualified and are extremely knowledgable in all aspects of the breed. 

Please don't start in again about how schutzhund is "just" a sport.  Until you have actually trained a dog in it you don't really know what you are talking about, you don't understand what is actually being tested, the nuances are beyond the uninitiated.  Are there shitty dogs who get titled?  Sure, no one said the system was perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than breeding couch potatoes because you think the color is so pretty, you really "love" your dogs, or "because you want to".

So if you are so sure you are right about your off colored dogs, work to change the system, rather than bitching about it on a message board.    A word of caution though, calling people inappropriate and rude names like "nazi" or "breed bigots"  is doing nothing to further your cause, it just makes you look like a fool. 

Nice to see you back Sue. John, some people can't be reasoned with. Let's call it a lost cause and move on.

Took the words right out of my mouth, Sue. I have yet to see in person an off colored dog with V quality structure or any real working ability.

I'd like to see the proof of less HD in whites, based on percentage, not raw numbers. It will of course be skewed as most pet owners do not OFA their dogs, and more breeders out there doing OFA are breeding standard colors, but I'd like to see it nonetheless.

John --

Actually, as of 1924, whites were not prefered, but neither were they disqualified.  So sayeth the Captain.

There are whites coming out of Germany, and several of them with titles, but they're not called GSDs...they're called WSSDs :)  They tend to have a different structural standard then the GSD -- no roach to the back, less angulation in the rear...coats are acceptable etc...

~Cate

Cate:  That's very  true.  I really don't consider them the same as the off color breeders like the one the OP started this thread about, or one I saw not too long ago where the breeder was all about nothing but off colors and LDD was praising for their beautiful dogs (all of which had substandard conformation, their sole criteria is off colors, etc.).     

Sue, ¶You and Ceph are correct--the WSSD are not the white products of the type of "breeders" cited by the OP. The WSSD have a breed standard guiding the breeding programs of WSSD breeders. That breed standard includes components addressing temperament and working ability. ¶Without breed standards we would only have mutts of various sizes and colors whose temperaments and abilities would fall into the "sooner" category. ¶For the non-Americans, "sooner" is a term applied to mixed breeds who are "as soon to be one thing as another." :-)

sueincc:

Your back... welcome!

or one I saw not too long ago where the breeder was all about nothing but off colors and LDD was praising for their beautiful dogs (all of which had substandard conformation, their sole criteria is off colors, etc.).

That's horsepoop. Recreating history does not advance your cause.  Please copy and paste where that was written.   (and a bigot is a bigot is a bigot)  

There have alsways been whites in the breed.  Certainly, if "titles" are THE element that colored lovers demand for legitimacy, it is unlikely that the whites ( who are fewer in number) and whose owners face the incredible screaming color bias will want to compete - so it is, in  my view, understandable there are fewer titled whites.  That being said - when it comes to abilities to work - there is no evidence that color makes any difference whatsoever.   Further, color makes no difference in confirmation, and while Ceph points out some differences that have arisen since the whites were ousted from the GSD breed registry in Germany, (which is to be expected when they're only breeding within a specific and limited group of animals)  they are still within the breed standard for confirmation within the GSDs as well.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that many of the whites are closer to the GSD standard for confirmation than some of the colored dogs are that are getting titles with their wierd new confirmational trends. 

Happy to oblige:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/70345.html#290009

LDD you just said:

"Certainly, if "titles" are THE element that colored lovers demand for legitimacy, it is unlikely that the whites ( who are fewer in number) and whose owners face the incredible screaming color bias will want to compete - so it is, in my view, understandable there are fewer titled whites. "

WTF are you talking about and where do you get this shit?  There's no conspiracy or bias when it comes to grip sport and herding  trials and clubs, which you would know if you actually knew what you were talking about instead of making up shit and talking out of your ass, of course it does make for a  handy excuse.

4Pack:  You're right!

LDD --

  I want to compete because there is a screaming color bias...I was summarily refused from a couple of clubs initially...though more recently I have been letting people get to know me first and then giggle about my dogs...I've got a great number of dog buddies I've met through training and through work willing to work with my dogs now...becayse I've shown them that I'm pretty much willing to work...it's amazing how willing people are to work with you when you are serious!

I know several AWSA breeders (those breeders in the USA who are for separation) who do herding with their dogs.  These breeders also participate in the WSGP.  They do this not only because they love the WSD, but because there is a bias.  I dont know why anyone would halt doing something because of a bias...rather, if they really love the breed, they should do it despite the bias to show people that those dogs really CAN!

  Who cares if you're going to get laughed at!  Hell, I do...all the time!  I laugh at myself more often then not.  But you know what...at the end of the day, when I do get those titles, they are going to mean that much more to me and to those people who have perhaps laughed but at the same time supported my goals.

  Sure it is harder to compete with whites...because so many have been breed by illegitimate breeders who dont care a whit for anything but color (color doesnt matter, but selection DOES and selection aint been all that great overall)...but it is at least positive to see that there are those who wish separation who are working towards a better set of colors.  I know my dogs certainly arent the best on the planet...they're not bad...and they're a good base for starting with some severe selection...but then again, that wont happen without titles.  I would like to see a day when there is a WSD competing at nationals....it may take me 20 years to reach that goal...but hey, I'm young.

  As far as the WSSDs in Europe -- none of those dogs would win a GSD conformation show.  The lovely thing about the WSSD standard is that unlike the GSD (at least as of yet) the working bred dogs and the conformation bred dogs are one in the same conformation wise...and there is actually little deviation from the European dogs to the American Dogs.

~Cate