Speechless - Page 7

Here's what it boils down to:  The standard is what it is, the fact that you reject certain aspects of it is your problem, not ours.  It has been explained to you, by many different people, you don't like the answers, but guess what?  That's too bad, not our problem.  We tried, you don't get it, oh well, that's life, move on.  

Now the onus is on you, not us. So let's go, get technical, get specific.  Explain to us which lines in particular of these off colored dogs you have studied and have personal knowledge of that have satisfactory  working ability, conformation and over all health, to say nothing of how they will improve the breed.   Please tell us specifically which lines you see as beneficial to the breed and which lines of normal colored dogs you think would be improved and how.  Let's see the pedigrees you must have studied to come to your conclusions.   Please give me the registered names of all these outstanding dogs and perhaps you can link us to the kennels breeding them? 

You want to talk about bullying?  Take a look in the mirror.  Ever since you have come to this board every time you bring up off color dogs you start calling people bigots and nazis  because you don't like their answers and because they breed their dogs to a standard?  Who the hell do you think you are and how dare you call ANYONE here a nazi or a bigot or biased.  Those terms are reserved for the worst of society, and have absoloutly nothing to do with breeding dogs.  EVERY breed has a standard and every breed has DQ faults.  But for you to resort to calling people nazis, bigots and color biased is beyond the realm of comprehension.  you do it for no reason other than to flame, making you nothing but a troll.  That's really disgusting and a real measure of  not only your complete lack of class it also speaks volumes of what a horribly miserable fucktard of a  person you must be.  

Edited to add:  What was wrong with those dogs conformation?????  Are you kidding me????? Well for starters, both dogs have snipey heads, one has extremely light eyes and the other has a brown nose.  I could go on, but educating you is not my job, nor do you ever seem to get it.  You argue for the sake of argument but in the end you say nothing of substance.

 

LDD --

Do you work your dogs?  Herding?  Protection Sport?  First of all I can say I have met no color bias from herding instructors (so you can't use that as an excuse there), and second of all, anyone who is put off by a little giggling at their dogs is not truly as into a 'working' breed as they say they might be.  If there is something you care about, you fight for it, and you dont let people laugh you off the field.  Blood, Sweat and Tears baby...it's all there and involved in working an off dog.  If so called 'breeders' can't handle that then they dont really love the breed like they say, because they arent willing to put up to fight for it and show others how wrong they can be.  Words mean very little in the long run, but actions, those truly do mean something.

I also dont think you are really listening to what I am saying.  The work of the whites in protection right now is substandard because of years of not paying enough attention to drives and temperment.  What we need are more people who are serious about working their dogs in Herding and Protection sport and also other sports who are willing to bring that working ability back.  Breeding for pets absolutely defeats the purpose, and continues to promote the whites-can't-work view that you seem to be fighting so hard against.

It's also important to remember that every breeds has faults...the whites are no exception.  No breeder, owner or fancier should be unaware of those....to be so unaware of their own breed does nothing save promote kennel blindness and breeding that improves nothing.  How can you possibly improve the breed if you can't accept that there are problems with it.  And my dear -- there is a problem with working ability...it is something that alot of White Shepherd Breeders are working to correct....but it's there.

~Cate

PS -- Sue -- lol, I hadnt been on the boards much myself so I hadnt known you had left....it would be a sad place without you here, so here's a belated WELCOME BACK from me :)

Well Ceph, I guess LuvDemDogs feels superior to mere mortals.   Did you know he/she has also stated he/she is not kennel blind?  Now that's funny!

I'm glad your back suenic . No one gets to the point as good as you .LOL

Y.R
Having seen over three Hundred Dogs working in Trials over the last two years, i have never seen a White G.S Dog working, in fact i have never seen a White G.S working on the training fields over here
I will go one even better, in the last three years i have not seen a White German Shepherd at all over here
Steve

Out of the mouths of babes . . .
My six year old daughter looked at the "Panda Shepherd" and said it looked like a Boston Terrier mix   LOL
What a mess those dogs are . . . how sad.

Here's a copy of a 1921 translation of the gsd standard's reference to color, which also states "It is desireable to try to improve his appearance, but nothing must be done that in any way will detract from his usefulness."


The favoring of sables over whites which prominently grew in the 1920's, eventually led to white's strictly enforced disqualification when the Nazi party took over in 1933, and had nothing to do with any health concerns, purely politics and money. Stephanitz thought he had achieved the best possible status for the breed, and actually encouraged (unwittingly, I'm sure) it's decline by the hand of show dog breeding (hi-lite next post below). His personal preference was for sable, and his apathy allowed for the diqualification of whites from the breed. Hitler and elite SV members of the Nazi party envisioned a breed strictly of predator wolf-like appearance in alliance with its symbolized views of the current German society.

The fact is, there is not a valid reason to disqualify any color that isn't directly related to health concerns, becuase dogs of any color have proven their utility in some form, even whites. Whites were at one time prefered, to distinguish the protector from the wolf at dusk with the herd. But when color is prioritized over utility to appease the fanciers, well, not much can be said in defense for the results given. Whether whites can "do the work" or not, it would only take one single white dog to reintroduce the color which can quickly spread, with less compromise to overall breed utility. The results, while legitimizing whites for those who can't cope with the split, would ultimately bastardize the rest of the white registries, which on the whole, can't perform the work.

Quote

The Colored Only vs White Coat Controversy Grows Among the Early SV Membership

By 1923 Stephanitz's still growing club membership numbered over 57,000 enthusiasts who grouped into factions of herdsmen, commercial breeders, and show dog devotees. Many commercial and show oriented breeders, who were less passionate about the dog's working characteristics, particularly wanted the breed to have a full wolf appearance. This, in part, is a carry over from the old Phylax Society members who joined with Stephanitz on the founding of his club in 1899. Winfred Strickland writes in her (1988 revised edition) book, “The German Shepherd Today,” that the old Phylax Society, "was based solely on its members common interest in breeding (herding) dogs to resemble wolves, presumably hoping to cash in on their high market value." Another faction opposed to the SV direction, who did not reject white as a breed color, actually broke away and operated under the DSV name until about 1928.

In his 1923 book Stephanitz recognized the esteem many held for the wolf look and wrote that breeders must not to add more “wolf blood" into his dogs because he had already developed the ideal balance of conformation and temperament. Stephanitz also wrote of SV politics in his 1923 book, “The group with the best chance of gaining the upper hand was the one which envisioned turning the breed into a working-type show dog, with at costs, erect ears and, possibly, a wolf-like appearance as well.” Even while expressing the importance of utility over appearance, Stephanitz himself expressed a personal preference for the wolf-like black and tan coloring in his 1916 and later writings. By the late 1920s SV breeders were already beginning to [cull] white-coat puppies from litters and the SV breeding program.

http://whitegsd.blogspot.com/2007/08/breed-background.html