Are Belgian Malinois replacing German shepherds? - Page 7

Yes you do see some ads for Champion Malinois but that's been the case for the last 25 years. What has changed in the last 25 years is that there are now working Malinois ads.

How about the economist's point of view?  If I need to buy and invest in a green dog and minimize the risk that the dog can't work up to a decent standard...

and I have a budget of less than $1250 -- Mal.  There are decent Mals in that price range, but few shepherds.
but if I a budget of more than $2500 -- I can probably find a GSD who might do even more for me.

I find the remarks about sport scoring and placements interesting.  As a college professor of many years, I must admit something most colleges want to deny:  there is an astonishing difference in the quality of education an A student and a C student take away from the place.  It is not a small matter: a student with a GPA of 3.8 is not marginally better qualified than a student with a 2.2 GPA, s/he is MUCH more qualified. 

In obedience, with which I have a long history, a V scoring dog is MUCH better than a G scoring dog (with some quirky exceptions). In AKC scoring, a 198 dog (and I have trained a few) is VASTLY better than a 175 dog (practically worthless, again with some quirky exceptions). 

The bottom line for me is that while I understand the argument that scoring and placements might have taken something away from Schutzhund as a breeding selection tool, I think the scoring gave back a lot, as well.  I know that I for one care about scores, not just titles, and I think they matter in breeding and breed development.  I am not saying that a dog who consistently earns top OB scores or top Protection scores is a better dog, and certainly not for all tasks, but the odds favor the dog who learns and performs WELL and consistently so.

Again, how many of you would be willing to change medical school admissions so that C students have the same shot at becoming your surgeon as A students?  I would operate on myself before I would allow some of my former C students take a knife to me!   (They'd be reciting "the knee bone is connected to the shin bone" in the OR...)

 

To MVF.
I agree with your reasoning as far as PERSONAL education goes. But if you throw dog into it, then we get different scenario. Please understand that originally the SchH was developed for evaluating a dog and not a dog team.... and not the person who owes, trainers or competes with it. Adding of scoring  of the dog team ads to it another factor.It adds human, and often his ego. "My dog is better then your dog." (read I am better trainer then you are , or I am better person then you are). And that is the problem with scoring. It starts to promote one sidedly certain traits and omits others. All knows that dogs who win are dogs with higher prey drive. That then leads to breeding such dogs with omission of all other traits. Hips, courage, defense drive( in SchH that is a bad thing), herding instinct , longevity......  And I am not even talking of people pushing inferior dog with exorbitant amount of training into scoring higher and higher. Most  top SchH dogs are done competing at 4-5 years of age and from that point on they breed because they have reputation as high scoring dogs. For example most Bundessieger pedigrees are riddled with lesser hips dogs. But they work great ...sport that is for 4 years and some even win nationals. However police work, where the courage in defensive situation is involved, these dogs often  do not do that well. That is why German police is now buying dogs in Czech , Holland, Belgium but not in Germany. Or they are buying Malinois who have so much prey that if they do not have defensive courage then the super high prey covers it up. Remember you start loosing traits  in phenotype after you do not breed for them for about 3 generations and up. That is why Max v Stephanitz was against sport. "Breeding dogs for sport will improve the breed at first, but in three generations it will lead to to certain deterioration". Pass don't pass would eliminate this problem because there is no ego involved. Just the dog. How high you set the standard for pass is a different story. Set it relatively high and you will improve the breed set it low and  mess it up. Also the old style testing should be involved since the  modern SchH caters to competiton.
Hans(Prager)
 http://www.alpinek9.com

Jim (Slamdunc),
I agree that buying a "green" dog of any of the three breeds being mentioned will cost pretty much the same. There are, however, many police departments that do not have the funds available to buy a dog that has already been started, at that level of cost. Many departments buy puppies and still others do have them donated. This is where Mali's become much more affordable and are a better bet. You will have a hard time prying a well bred, top quality working GSD pup out of a breeder for less than $1500 and most go for over $2000.  Add to this that most GSD breeders prefer that their pups go to "Schutzhund" homes with the hopes that a dog with their kennel name on it does well, as opposed to a police department where the kennel name is never mentioned in any of the drug busts that the dog makes.
I know of some extremely well bred working/sport Mali puppies that were just sold to some people in my club for $300 each. (To me this is a sign that Mali's are being over-bred) They are phenomenal little pups and what a bargain compared to a $1500 crapshoot with a lot of GSD pups.
In Germany, where the Mali's are apparently becoming more prevalent as Police K-9's, they are limited in spending to a figure somewhere around the $2000 range. (I have been searching for where I obtained this and haven't found it yet. Gustav may be able to help with this?) The breeders/trainers in Germany aren't going to put work in to a young GSD and sell it for that little when they can ship it to almost any other country and get at least double that for the dog.
To me, it is simply becoming a matter of less cost, greater potential, and minimizing potential loss when choosing a Mali over a GSD these days, especially for less than optimally funded K-9 units.
I'm a GSD person, so, I would still take one any day over a Malinois, but, I do see where the Mali is the overall better choice for a PDK9 unit in many instances.

I needed to provide several K9 for PDs here in AZ and they had to be Malinois. I called my partner and friend in Czech and ask for BM. He said that there are not that many of any quality and the good ones are more expensive then GSD. I asked him why not? And he  said that we have good GSDs in Czech and thus we do not need them. I am from Czech and go there often and I attest to this. Not too long time ago I decided to provide Malis to PDs (if you can not beat them join them type of thing) and the prevalent reason why any BMs are available in Czech rep is only because they are requested by PDs in USA.
Hans (Prager)
http://www.alpinek9.com

I think this is a police trial. Please notice the breeds and their placemnt.
Next time you need to get a Malinois from Czech give me a call.

http://www.policiek9.cz/fotogalerie/album/slides/YG2D8484.jpg

http://www.policiek9.cz/fotogalerie/album/slides/YG2D8506.jpg

http://ad.vscr.cz/news_files/Soutezni_druzstvo_Policie_CR.JPG
 

OGBS,
I will agree that you can find a suitable mali for police work at a somewhat less expensive price than a similar GSD.  Especially, if you consider people in the US breeding mali's; which we don't.  We only use imported dogs for the most part.  I don't know of any Police Dept's in the US that raise their own puppies.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen; just that I don't know of any on the East Coast.  It may very well happen in other areas of the country.  I raised my K9 form a puppy and had to jump through hoops to "donate" him to my PD so I could use him as my police dog. 

Here's what I see and my experience with police dogs lately:

Malis, dutch shepherds, GSD's are all certainly capable of the work.  GSD's are the predominate dog used in LE in my area as patrol dogs.  My PD has 7 patrol dogs, 6 GSD's and 1 mali.  A neighboring city that  we work closely with and train with has about 20 dogs, probably 12-14 GSD's, 6 - 8 mali's and 1 Dutch Shepherd.  I don't know the exact number for that PD.  Last month I went to a vendor to evaluate dogs for them and I saw 6-7 really good mali's and 1 nice dutch shepherd, no GSD's.  The PD I was there with bought an excellent mali.  They went back last week and bought another really nice mali. 

Perhaps in the future the mali's will out number the GSD's as the predominate patrol dog, but it hasn't happened yet here.  I often wonder what type of dog I'll get for my next K9 or even sport dog.  There are things about malis I really like such as smaller size, speed and quick to bite.  I don't like handler sensitive dogs and I am not crazy about handler aggressive dogs.  I like a dog that can take a hard correction and maintain a clear head still focused on the job at hand.   I do like Dutch Shepherds, the ones I've seen are not handler sensitive and pretty hard and they can and will bite quickly.  

Overall, I like a clear headed, high drive (all drives), hard dog with a full hard crushing grip.  Ideally I like that in a GSD because I don't find them to be as handler sensitive as some mali's.  4 or 5 years ago I would have never considered a DS or a mali over a GSD.  I certainly would now for my next police dog, not my next sport dog (I'm still a GSD guy).  I think I'll be able to find another really good GSD for my next police dog, but who knows.....I'll take the best dog I can find regardless of breed.  But I'll try a czech GSD again any time.

Jim