are they for real?? - Page 6

Heres a simpler answer.......
We will breed the dogs to our interpretation of the standard.......whether they place well or not.
We will not follow a trend.........either the Judges will appreciate my dogs, or they won't....we will continue to breed what we feel is sound.

Robin

Okay, yes, I understand now!    Thank you.

thanks Robin.  even though our ideal is different,  we do have the same goal.  to breed willing, sound dogs.
 I have enjoyed conversing with you,  you have not been rash or rude because we appreciate different style dogs.

Sunsilver,

Heres an example........
You can look up  Drago von Huerta Hof on this database......we bred him over 9 years ago.
He is trully 65cm tall, med strength, longer dog....he's wasn't perfect.....but he was soundly constructed in body & mind.
In the time we were showing him......the trend for the working class males was well over 68cms....so Drago always looked "smaller" in the class.  But because the standard says 65cms, we bred accordingly and continued to show him. (I will not complain, he did do very well).
We never got a male from him that we "considered" better than him, so we did not keep any, however; we held onto 2 daughters...Pheobe & Tatianna.
He wasn't used by more than 3 others, and I wish he had better females taken to him.....but alas...it's the past.
In my opinion........the females we kept and titled....were not the "extreme" dogs, of the "trend"  that so many are used to seeing......and yes, they can do the work.....just as their father did years before.

I took a trip to the past.
Robin

We will breed the dogs to our interpretation of the standard.......whether they place well or not.

THE Standard, above all else, is WORKING.
You neglect that. You interpret and see what you want and close your eyes to that which counts the most.
Its you and those like you, that are ruining the breed.
Not singling you out, but its obvious where your priorities are.

"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs.'  -Max

'The buyer, however, is mostly an unsuspecting novice, or else one who knows or cares nothing for the weal or woe of the race as yet. He knows nothing of racial type, nothing of the value of aptitude for work, he often only has an eye for appearances and wishes his dog to be imposing and remarkable, and sometimes even a ruffling swashbuckler.'  Max

'When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such.
There again, we encounter another danger for the race.
The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers.' -Max

Uglydog....
They are "capable" of doing and have "achieved" both.
I hope I continue to "ruin the breed " in this way.......and I hope you can "ruin" the breed the same way.
My priorities are very obvious.....I want & have both.

Best to you.

Robin, that's the style of dog I like. He's not extreme in any way. But you said 'the standard for the working line dog'...wait a minute, didn't you mean SHOW line? He sure doesn't look working line to me!

2000 was the year of Ursus. I also liked his structure, as well as that of his son, Larus. Ursus is my bitch's grandfather, and was one of the main reasons I chose to buy her, even though she was a mix of German and American lines. (Her other grandfather was Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes, which didn't hurt, either! That was one American dog who trotted on his feet, not his hocks!)

Robin, not to be contentious, but other than sport and many would say that the sport title is only there as requisite for breeding, in what practical venue do you see these dogs "being capable and having achievments". I understand the evolution of dogs and dogs application, but if the German Shepherd is a working dog and always has been a working dog where is the practical application of this type of GS in today's society. A sch title is a patterned training exercise that these dogs are marginally doing.(majority). There are many venues that the dog is still being used for today to do what it was created for. They are not all biting venues, though they all require strong nerve and adequate drive and hardness to work in unscripted scenarios. So in the vocations of SAR, Narcotic work, patrol work, seeing-eye work, herding work, etc. operators are not only not seeking these dogs but if you talk to these agencies they will tell you that when they get these dogs the washout rate is too high to put the investment in. If the "theory" of "capable and achievement" is not demonstrated anywhere but a controlled training exercise necessary for breeding, then the theory and the reality of this dog being capable of working "consistently"(and if something isn't performing consistently none of us wants it), is no longer valid. I guess that I cannot reconcile that the venues where dogs are doing real work today want nothing to do with this type of dog for work,(SAR is not bitework), are these people unaware of these capabilities and achievement, or are they all anti-showline because of rhetoric, or have they come to the conclusion as time have "evolved" that this product no longer meets the standard foe working?? I'm curious.

I have seen plenty of Huerta Hof dogs do protection tests and they are very nice dogs indeed. In fact, I bred my Jaguar daughter to a Drago son with stupendous results for medium size, dryness, and drives.

What I am saying, and I think Robin may be too, is you can have a West German dog that is NOT roached, NOT extreme in angulation, and a solid workers. Will your dog V? In all likelihood, yes. Will it go high V or VA? Because it does not conform to the trend (TREND, not standard!) maybe, maybe not, especially if you lack political pull.  Does it matter? To me, no. V is V in my book and I'll take a lower or middle V dog who is sound and can work over a high rated, heavily angulated dog with poor work any day. 

Now when you get it all, no extremes, good health, great work, high rating, all in one package that is a treasure indeed but in my experience it happens rarely.

Gustav,
Since most people on these forums refer to their dogs are being the "real dogs" and true "working dogs", I simply state that my dogs, too achieve the goals that I have set forth for them.
This breed was originated to be versatile.  It was created to be a "herding" dog, used as a "war dog", and had a sport designed for it, and has been a "multi service" dog for numerous tasks......
I believe that the "temperment" of the GSD dog is the most important factor of the breed, which includes, drive, nerve & "workability".....and I don't only mean the sport of Schutzhund.....contrary to many believers, there is life outside the sport.
Yes.....we have dogs that have accomplished other "life goals" outside of the sport & ring.
We have had a couple sold to the police department and are "active". We have a couple placed with families, as "specialized dogs for children with Autism"....My understanding is,..theres' a program that families with Autistic children are trying to create.
They would have these dogs trained for the needs of each specific child.  We have one family , here in Woodstock, Il.
One dog was given to a young woman, (who is paralized from the waist down) as a personal service dog.
With the help of a Service Dog School, my husband & Hillary herself......this dog helps her complete the tasks of her daily life. What is even more impressive...is that she began to train him in the sport of Schutzhund, when everyone told her that it couldn't be done. He has his BH, he does the "retrieve", he does the "2 blinds", he does the bitework.......but she is unable to teach him to track.....not because of the dog.....but because of "her" situation.
AND, yes....we have had a dog used as a SAR dog.....she was certified and  was represented by her owner/handler at the Rosemont International a few years back, before she was killed in an auto accident.  Her name was Clara....she was of our breeding.

Then.....of course, the "dreaded" Conformation Shows.

Have a nice weekend.
Robin