I Hope This Isn't True -- It Sickened Me !!! - Page 10

 MaggieMae,

Why do you keep arguing about something even when you know you are wrong?

Maggie,
I think your questions were answered several times. 

Rlhar, thanks for posting that video that was an excellent example of what I was saying.  BTW, your on for a fastest dog contest next time you come down here. :)

Even Slamdunc said that he has left Clubs where he doesn't like their "training methods" -- but he did not explain exactly what those methods were.

Maggie, there are lots of ways to train dogs and I have my own preferred method.  I like using praise and a reward like a ball on a rope.  I get my dogs into drive and make training fun.  I like to teach exercises motivationally and will use food, a clicker, a toy, praise or a combination of all of those things.  I find what best motivates my dog and I use that to train.  I am not heavy handed, I find it can be counter productive.  I rarely yell at my dogs and have never hit my dogs.  My hand is for praising the dog only, never hitting. 

I don't like people who "yank and crank" their dogs as a primary motivator.  Those are the clubs I avoid and do not train with.  I do not like "heavy handed" trainers who employ a lot of compulsion on soft dogs.  Now, I do use compulsion when my dog disobeys a command.  However, I am fair and the dog knows what to expect and how to achieve success.  I am very consistent and I keep everything black and white, there are no grey areas.  My dog knows how to get what he wants; his reward and will work enthusiastically for it.  I like "happy" focused obedience and I want my dogs in drive pushing me to work because they enjoy it. 

I currently have two dogs, a 10 year old SchH 3 female and my K9.  Both raised from puppies, I have never "hung" either one of them.  I had a male GSD years ago who had some handler aggression issues and once or twice I raised the leash so he couldn't bite me.  Not like the video of Cesar.  I was quicker and placed the dog on the ground very quickly. 

Now, when doing third party corrections on dogs some will turn to bite the person correcting them instead of the decoy.  Will I reel the leash in and quickly raise the dog holding it at arms length till the handler can take the dog from me, you betcha.  This is a rare event but can happen, am I prepared for it?  Yes, I am.  Like I said this is a technique reserved for dangerously aggressive dogs. 

Let me end by making a couple of points:
1: Because a dog bites it's handler does not make it a bad dog, it shows there are issues that need to be resolved.  Perhaps the training needs to be modified or changed.  It is clearly a signal that something is wrong and something needs to be evaluated.

2: If I was to see someone abusing an animal I would most certainly step in and say something.  Just as I would if I saw someone abusing a person either verbally or physically.   Now, I would look at the situation and see what the reason was and take what I feel would be an appropriate response.  If it was just harsh corrections by an inexperienced handler I would offer advice and explain the problem.  If it was actual abuse I'd step in and take a stronger position and I have in the past.  I am an animal lover and that is why I got into dog sport and became a K9 handler. 

Look at the thread by Sitasmom on her BH, I think it is called "d" now on the German Shepherd side.  Sitasmom, was going to be very forceful with her dog and many people offered her advice and warned against it. 

My last point is not to believe everything you read on the Internet. I'm sure I could dig up th

Still waiting for your proof, maggs.

Surely someone as astute as yourself didn't start this whole thread and hasn't argued that this rampant cruelty exists or ever existed as acceptable training methods without some sort of corroborating evidence, right?

Just because MaggieMae is not innured to abuse, it does not mean that she is ignorant of the ethical dimensions of the problem. That argument fails.  I have never observed ritualistic clitorectomies in Africa, but that does not prevent me from judging the practice to be barbaric.  In fact, the last person who should judge the concentration camp is the prison guard outside the gate.

The logic here is flailing.  The question on the table is whether people can become so invested (perhaps incestously) in protection training that they hang dogs by the neck until unconscious?  Further, do our paid government officials do this with our tax money (and hence impose an ethical burden upon us)?

There is indeed less weight to all this if it is purely hypothetical, so evidence (even observational) that this is being done seems to matter.  But MaggieMae does not actually have to prove it happens to raise the issue.  (Although she does have to prove it happens to charge specific individuals with criminality.)

Sorry for being a professor, but this argument is important and murky.

Sueincc: I nonetheless agree with you, as I said, that specific charges of criminality come with a burden of proof.

Unfortunately, our species has proven time and again that we are perfectly willing to do this to a wide range of animals, including some as smart as our beloved dogs.  We have done things this horrific to our fellow man over and over again.  So why doubt that someone, somewhere, does this to dogs?  I think we might as well accept it and move on.  I think sueincc suggested that a while back.

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I just want to clarify something I said:  I said "hard, rank, handler aggressive dog."  Not just a "hard dog."  Completely different things and I want to be clear I was referring to handler aggression.  It seems my comment of "hard" was misunderstood earlier in this thread by several people. 

To be clear also, I have never seen any one "helicopter a dog"  any where, I've just never seen it done.  I have seen people lift handler aggressive dogs off the ground by the leash and hold them at arms length to avoid being seriously bitten.  It's been a very long time and I've never seen it done till the dog passes out.  I have never seen any one "hang" a dog as a training technique.  I'm sure somewhere, sometime, someone has probably done it, but I have never witnessed it and I don't know anyone who would employ such barbaric outdated techniques now.  I can't imagine any reason to do this.  I have never seen this done at a SchH club or in K9 training, it just doesn't serve a useful purpose.

I still think the article is based on a grain of truth and twisted out of context.  It is similar to the OT political and religious threads posted here, maybe there was a grain of truth once but it is so twisted that they are no longer accurate or reliable.  Of course, you always need a grain of truth to make it somewhat believable. 

Jim