2009 USA Nationals - Page 10

Maligirl the video does not work.
 
I agree with what you said in your earlier post and for Molly to say he ABUSES his dog is just wrong. Abuse is a big and nasty word and to accuse someone of this with out proof is way off base. Where is the proof Molly???????????

Denise

Maligirl - I went home to take care of my kennels that night, which was why I could not attend the meeting.  I work for a living...

remember, there are always at least two sides to every story.  Listening to only one will skew your understanding of the situation, every time.

I was given the dog by the rightful owner (the person who paid for the dog).  The dog had been abused by Chico, which was why it was taken from  him (by it's rightful owner) and why it was given to me.  Chico took it to court as was his right to do, and his case was dismissed by a judge.  I now have full rights to the dog and paperwork in order.

I have known Chico for years, and have seen his dogs attitudes and FEAR OF HIM for as long.  Why was his dog SCREAMING IN PAIN before going on the field at Regionals?  Because it was happy and motivated?   Trainers can talk the talk (happy, motivation, love your dog, etc) but watch how they walk the walk, with their own dogs before making any final conclusions about their training methods.  They can be completely different with client dogs.... and should be.

There are other people who train their dogs this way, to get the points.  Including others mentioned in this thread and some who stand on the podium regularly.  It is a shame that they get their points through pain and force in training, instead of fair corrections and actual "love of the dog and the sport".  They can kiss their dogs who are cringing away from them all the want in front of people, but the training has nothing to do with love...

I don't think this kind of pressure is necessary - it is bad training even if the points come.  I know most of the top trainers do not force-train their dogs to the point the dogs are afraid of them - how about the recent winners of the BSP and WUSV?  They appear happy and motivated, yet correct in the work.   Those that do should not be awarded V scores if their dogs show the pressure they are under, in the trial.  It is as simple as that.

Why doesn't Chico or other of these trainers have any old retired dogs?  What happens to their dogs when they fail to get the points?  I hate to think about it.  Poor dogs.

molly

Y.R
that is what i believe in, you have it spot on for without that kind of feeling no animal will respect and give its all  the way you want it too
 An affinity with a Dog is a great thing to watch, and to have, It lightens you up to be that way with an animal or even birds And i have a better affinity with Dogs and Pigeons than i do my own species,and to be honest i am never happier than when i am with them
Steve1 

Well, well well.....I have trained with numerous handlers... (including Chico). It seems kind of strange that this is coming up now....maybe because of the dog situation. If someone has known someone for yrs. and the training has been the same...why all of a sudden is the training such a big deal.....it wasn't before...at least to the point that someone is being disparaged on the internet! 

You can look at ANY trainer and find a fault in thier methods. Abuse is such a misused word. Everything can be considered abuse...depending on who's making the judgment. 

That is true Ron - but methods are not the issue I'm discussing - it's dogs showing stress and pressure in the work, in the trial, and receiving V score because they are correct.  IMO this is wrong.

I don't believe he usually gets V scores with his fearful dogs (good!) - I guess I can just hope that most judges would not award a dog showing stress in the work a V score no matter who the handler is.  Too bad this one did.

molly

Good point, Ron! Isn't that why some dog equipment suppliers now sell covers for the prong collars? Because some "cookie trainers" and John Q. Public consider prong collars to be abusive...even though choke collars cause more damage. There are pseudo- cookie trainers who claim that they don't even use any corrections, and train entirely motivationally with cookies. Yet, there are contemporaneous photos of the same trainers with their dogs and the dogs are clearly wearing e-collars and/or prong collars. So? Who are they fooling, besides John Q. Public?

As for the dog in question that rightfully belongs to Chico Stanford.  Molly call the AKC Case Management Director (as we did a few minutes ago) - her name is Sue - and she will be happy to tell you who the register owner is :  Fernando (Chico) Stanford and Mary ************* is listed as co-owner.  Principal Owner is Chico Stanford.  Then when you get done doing that - call USA  (Pam)- and ask them who the dog is registered to and they will tell you Fernando (Chico) Stanford. 

Do the honorable thing and return the dog - instead of attempting to slander Chico.  

    AND SOME SAY THERE IS NO NEED FOR GROUPS SUCH AS OURS:Ummm HELLOOOO!!!!


II. Denials & Justifications

Ventura PD K9 “Edu”

In my experience, there are two basic ways that handlers, "trainers," and department heads will respond to being asked about or confronted about hanging, helicoptering and kicking.

The first way is bald-faced lying. Many will vehemently deny that they have even ever heard about such things or, if they do acknowledge having heard of them, they will tell you with a solemn, innocent expression, "Our department doesn't do that," or “That used to be a common way of training, but it hasn't been done for the past 20 years."

There may be a few departments that don't string up dogs, but they would be very much in the minority at this time, based on research I've done and communication with trainers who participate in Schutzhund events around the world (Schutzhund is the method used for poli

It starts with the denial:

"While there are techniques to train dogs that are vile, they are very rarely used. I myself have not used them and know of no one else that has...

It continues with the justification:

"Normal dog training uses techniques that to a tree hugger animal activist would seem cruel. However, when you have an 80 lb. shepherd that in a moment's notice can rip your bicep off (seen it), obedience is priority one. Dogs do not come out of the womb obedient... there is a point in time compulsion (physical correction) is required."

http://www.stoplynching.com/html/denials___justifications.html



In November of 2002, a young woman named Tzilla Yanai submitted an affidavit which was printed on the Internet, about a married couple named Bryan and Claudia McNulty. She had met them in South Africa and they invited her to the United States to "learn more about Schutzhund training and to assist in training dogs for the show ring." Ms. Yanai stayed with the McNultys and was shocked by their treatment of the dogs, which included making them live in small air travel crates 23 1/2 hours each day, even though the McNultys had many acres of property. The dogs were brutalized in various ways, including repeated electric shocks applied to a young bitch until she was wetting herself and yelping ( for not coming back when called at a previous time, which she could not have understood). Ms. Yanai wrote that Bryan McNulty shot a dog with a rifle, killing him in her presence, and that he also often boasted of having slit the throats of many dogs.

The affidavit was responded to by Molly Graf, USA Northeast Regional Breed Warden, Eichenluft Working German Shepherds. Molly told Ms. Yanai she should send her notarized letter to several people in Schutzhund, including National Breed Warden Johannes Grewe (the same Johannes Grewe, I presume, who "pulls hard on the rope attached to a pinch collar around Nitro 's neck. The animal squeals and careens in a heap..." in Bakersfield). She further advised that it would be helpful if more people would step forward as witnesses to Bryan and Claudia McNulty's abuses. She commented, "Bryan McNulty is now an apprentice judge for USA...Claudia McNulty is Regional Breed Warden and member of the Breed Advisory Committee."

I emailed Molly and wrote that I know how difficult it is to get people to "step forward" to report what they have witnessed, but that I have in my possession a police report in which Mrs. Brown describes the manual strangulation of a K9 by David Inglis while his wife Debbie kicked the dog in the testicles, EXPECTING THAT SHE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THIS DOCUMENTATION.

Molly's response to my email was, "In Schutzhund, training is not supposed to be all fun-fun for the dogs."

I believe that Molly's reply to my email SPEAKS VOLUMES as to the amount of tolerance for dog abuse and torture in Schutzhund style dog "training."