2009 USA Nationals - Page 9

I did,nt get a gift or bad score because I wasn,t competeing. I,m sure the ones on this board who are arm chair judgeing arent getting gifts or bad points because they werent competing either. 

When I ran my Martial Arts school and the kids would go to competition in Chicago,New York,Atlanta, Dallas, L.A., you know National tournements I would occasionally hear one of the parents or even a student whine because Joe or Sue got a better score cause of who they are or what school they were from and my response was always the same " the next time it could be you catching the judges eye and getting those points" and someone else will be whinning just do the best you can and compete to the best of your abalities thats all anyone can ask of you. 

There,s always those that whatch the replays and make a different call thats life everyone who has been "around" knows that and accepts that.

This is what happens when you turn a temperment test into a national sport nothing that you can do about it points,points,points, points... the beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the judge at the present.

I personnely hate the dogs that stare straight up at the handler for the entire routine unwavering in focus my personnel opinion is I want my dog obedient and aware of it,s surrondings at all times. I,m not a sport guy and will not tell those better then me how to train or what should and should not be. I appreciate all the time competitors spend making flawless routines and whish I could do better my self. I,m not going to argue who got what for what reason if you don,t like the judgeing  train to become a judge and make the call your self and initiate the change in perception.


I congratulate all the competitors at our nationals it took lots of hard work to get there.  

     

The problem with assessing training methods to grade somebody is that there are different degrees of dogs and dog temperaments that are presented to a handler to master the routines. Some dogs with less prey drive and higher defense drive will never present the animated tailwagging picture that is often seen in today's sch. Methodology to get these dogs to the "precision" level that is necessary to compete nationally will vary greatly. If we define methods as opposed to outcomes in our grading schematic, then you will see a certain type of dog slowly evaporate from the national scene and you will see a certain type of dog be prevalent.(I think we have already gone there).
Sometimes, the impact of what people want "for the human good of the equation" results in unintended results. My point is that if you deviate from the correctness which is subjective being used as the barometer in grading, to portions of "happiness or methodology that is discenable, as factoring into grading, then what becomes the standard to assess this aspect. Do we take points off people who it is apparent used the "suc-platz" method of training for tracking.
In the end you have to grade the correctness of the routine by the dog. A dog that cannot handle the rigors of a training regiment will not be successful. We have people trained in the Army and in Special Forces. The special forces training does not meet the warm and fuzzy standards of the army, but then again the people who cannot "endure" this type of training are washed out. JMO

Bob,
I agree with you on congratulating all the competitors on their hard work for qualifying and trialing.

I was there and had a great time. It is always good to see friends and meet new ones.
The venue was a baseball stadium and the food was stadium food. Expecting anything different would be un-realistic.

As for ther training Molly describes, I agree that it is un-necessary and shouldn't be rewarded.
However, Molly, you obviously have an agenda. It's as simple as that because you always do.
If you really have an issue with this why not contact Nathaniel and talk to him about it instead of bringing it up here.

Calvin, you wrote a very nice post, but, you also wrote about "punishing" dogs when training. Either this was poorly worded or you need to re-evaluate your training methods, as well!

As for Chico Stanford, that has got to be one of the all-time best porn names you could come up with!!!!!

No agenda - sorry for the disappointment - no drama.  As I said - it doesn't matter who the handler is.  ANYONE who trains in an abusive way that produces a dog obviously pressured and stressed in the trial work - should not be awarded V score in any phase.  The highest they should get, even if everything is straight and "correct" - is 95.  People who train this way should not be rewarded and encouraged to continue training this way to get the big scores.  For the good of the sport and for the dogs.

molly

OGBS,

 

Sorry I missed you in Iowa!  Maybe I'll see you at the AWDF?    I realize schutzhund folks just "blend" better than I, but I'd swear I did not see some of the posters at the event at all!!

The only way that less abusive training methods will make it to the forefront is if people who use them speak out and actually win these events! It is not enough if the dog is happy, the dog has to be precise as well. A year and a half ago, I posted a question wondering if anyone had reached top five in a National event without the use of an e collar. ( I am not saying that everyone abuses the e collar) The answer was a resounding NO. Until someone actually does it, people will continue to believe that they need alot of force to reach that level. And they will be right.
See you next year at the Nationals! With cookies, ball, tug, CLICKER (ha, ha) hugs, and he even sleeps on the bed.
Shade

A  quote  from    'T"  

But correction is different. Correction to me is like a bullet. Once I release it, I can’t take it back. How do I know that I was right giving it in the first place? What if I make a mistake?”

I will never forget what T. Floyd said.“Man, I love you for asking that.” T replied, “Everything between you and your dog must come from your heart, out of love. Your reward comes out of love and so does your correction! Without love your reward is only empty food. But with love the same reward will make him grow and become more than what he would otherwise be. So also with correction".

He continued, “If you have love… not the mushy, oh my cutie pie kind of love. But true deep soul-love. The kind of love that lets the dog know that you see him as a part of yourself then all the corrections you give will only bring him up in drive and making him grow… for the sake of that love that he feels radiating out of your being. If there is love in your heart when you give the correction, even if you were wrong about your decision you will still not lose your dog.”

T smiled down at me and shook his head in approval, “This is real deep stuff, Man! And people spend a lifetime in this sport and do not get this



YR      
Taken from another forum in an article about     Suche   Fuus    Fassen   Schutzhund and the Art of Leadership

Thank you YR for bringing up that excerpt from a chapter in a book that I'm writing:

To set the record straight.... this refers to a conversation I had in 2005 in a seminar with T Floyd.

Ravi Iyer

Seems like there is question here that should have been directed at the judge! Maybe he saw something in the dog that others didn't. I've seen dogs trained with numerous techniques and methods. Some dogs respond others sulk....refuse...retreat...bite! Is there a possibility that what people think they saw was actually something else?

Molly I find it very hard to believe that your original post and your slanderous comments about "obvious abuse" etc. was not written with an agenda in mind - no matter what you say - because I have serious questions about your integrity.  You see, while the Northeast Regional meeting was taking place, I was in the parking lot of the hotel talking to you - never met you before, had no clue who you were....later I found out who you were (someone put a name to the face) when I was told why you did not attend the meeting.  You were not even at the Nationals to see this dog perform.   Let me set the record straight, because I know the competitor who your referring to (but don't have the rocks to name) who does not have time to sit in front of computer .....he prefers to spend any free time he has with his dogs.

The dog in question is 3yrs and 10 months old.  The competitor raised, nurtured and trained  the dog since he was 8 weeks old.  I would think, by your own account, that if he was "obviously abusing" this dog it would have shut down long ago - I just don't see that ever happening.   I could only hope to one day have the bond, that he has with his dogs (all his dogs), with mine.  I have watched this dog and competitor train for the last 2.5 years and have been to most of their trials.  I don't need to go to a trial and assume or speculate how this competitor trained his dog - I am privledged (yes, it is definitely an honor to me) to have watched first hand how he trained this dog.   I know for a fact  that your interpretation and speculations of how this dog was trained are way off mark = wrong.  What most people would be surprised to know is that he actually does use a clicker, he does use reward (both food and toy) as well as withholding of reward and if a correction is required it is a very fair correction - he has never been abusive to this dog or any dogs that he has worked with to include my own. He is very hard on the handlers that he works with,  but has always been very fair to every dog.  He is the first one to admonish any of the handlers he works with when they don't reward (praise, ball, tug, food) their dog for the smallest accomplishments and even worse when a handler corrects their dog incorrectly, unfairly or to strongly - and is even harder on himself as a handler. He refuses to work with anyone that does not have a love for their dog and an obvious bond before any training ever takes place- it is not all about the almighty dollar to him.  


Not having a helper in over a  year to work ones dog in the C Phase - is the reason why this dog did what it did in the C Phase - lack of the ability to train this phase...nothing more...nothing less.   Once again, just because someone who has never seen this person train the dog on a daily basis (or even once in Molly's case)perceives something to be.......does not make it so.  Don't make accusations.......know the facts.

Here is a video of the dog I am speaking about (as well as the one Molly won't name) at the Northeast Regionals:

[url]http://laceync.smugmug.com/Other/2009-NE-Regional/Northeast-Regionals/9770239_6UCPg[/url]

Why do you still possess a dog that you know does not rightfully/morally belong to you - that does belong to Chico?