Your dogs are too fat !!!! - Page 3

Thanks for the research article.  Nonetheless, I must admit to some skepticism with respect to the advisability of limiting caloric intake for growing dogs to limit CHD risks.

If you read the article and the referenced research CAREFULLY, you will see that the actual EVIDENCE of a correlation of any substantial magnitude between CHD and weight gain is not actually very clear.  There is some research, admittedly, showing a slight decrease in CHD among dogs who grew more slowly (the recommendation in the research is 10 pounds per month -- so 60 pounds at 6 months, presumably in contrast to a substantially well fed male gsd who might weigh 70-75 at that age).

Say we accept the CHD research literature that says 60 lbs at 60 months is in fact the best weight for CHD.  What does this mean for people who feed more and let their pups grow to say 72 lbs at 6 months?  Or people who underfeed and raise a scrawny 52 lb 6 month old male?

 Does a 72 lb 6 month old male grow up to have an additional 1% risk?  3% risk?  5% risk?   The research is not actually clear on this -- does anyone have a legitimate research source that estimates increased risk?  

And what of a thin, underfed dog (a male much less than 60 lbs at 6 months, according to the scientific research)?  If you know any developmental biology, you know that if a young growing organism is UNDERWEIGHT, a higher percentage of its body weight is bone and organ weight, and TOO LITTLE WEIGHT is invested in muscle mass.  This would put hips at risk.  SO AN UNDERWEIGHT DOG IS ALSO AT INCREASED RISK FOR CHD.

Further, underfeeding for the purpose of reducing hip risks comes at a cost to brain development.  In research with tragically sad outcomes, it has been shown that human babies whose diet was restricted in breast milk or at least supplemented whole fat milk have lower IQs.  Children need whole fat milk until at least the age of 2 in order to complete optimal brain development.  What is the equivalent for our dogs?  4 months?  6 months?  8 months?  Whatever that critical age, if we restrict caloric intake and fat before that time, our dogs' brain development is harmed.

I teach decision making, so my own decision calculus requires that I balance CHD risks against brain development (and happiness -- who wants to be hungry?)  If I believe the research that says 60 lbs at 6 months is ideal for CHD, but a little more food is better for my dogs' brain development, then the best thing for my dogs' HEALTH OVERALL may be another 3 pounds?  5 pounds?  8?  My point is that it is hard to say -- if not impossible -- but restricting caloric intake for the purpose of reducing CHD risk without taking into consideration other developmental concerns (e.g., brain development) is not wise.  

Further, it seems to me that many people OVERREACT, and underfeed their puppies -- whose hips are actually HARMED by the lack of muscle mass, whose brains never optimally develop, and who probably suffer from hunger for much of their development.  I have seen 45 lb 6 month old male gsd's who looked awful -- and their owners seemed to be of the horrifying impression that starving their puppies was in their dogs' best interest.

Of course, people who truly raise obese puppies (males over 80 lbs at 6 months and females over 75 lbs at 6 months) are probably adding to hip risk without any brain development benefit.

"my mom and I always fed our big dogs science diet and they all lived long pretty healthy lives. I know alot of people dont like science diet here but so far, I do. I think good execise like being out all day in a big yard with other dogs is key more than nit picking diet. :)"

My problem is the cost relative to the quality.  I just checked the price of 35lb Science Diet kibble for a large breed adult (Lamb and Rice) is $53.  I currently use California Natural Lamb and Rice which is $45 for 30lb so it would be the same price as SD for 35lb if it came in that size (and I actually get it cheaper from a supplier).  But comparing the ingredients and also where the food comes from (which companies make it, how it is processed, what the ingredients *really* are), I find the Cal Nat much better.  SD has 365 Kcals/cup and CN has 430.  SD contains several ingredients that I personally refuse to feed my dogs or cats (corn, wheat, soy, gluten, by-product).

So why would I spend MORE (b/c I'd have to feed MORE based on the Kcals and the recommended feeding) on Science Diet when I can get a far better quality, limited ingredient diet kibble that does not contain any corn, wheat, soy, or gluten?

 I pray that I never get to be such an expert that I cannot learn something new

Given how much knowledge changes and evolves that's the only way to approach it in my opinion CrysBuck25.  Hopefully your step son's Mal will be happy and healthy in spite of the unsound rearing she experienced.

My problem is the cost relative to the quality.

I'm actually amazed that more people don't do this math Liesjers.  I feed a high quality food that's $80/35kg.  I could feed Science Diet instead, which cost $65/35kg.  The $80 bag lasts five weeks, corresponding to $16/week, while the higher feeding requirement for Science Diet would mean that it would last around 3.5 weeks (i.e. $18/week).  Looking purely at cost I actually come out *ahead* by feeding the more expensive food, and my dog benefits from the better diet.

I have said it often enough you eat only to .live and grow you do not need to live just to eat
NOTHING including humans should over eat certainly not any animal or bird the only time anything needs a little more is to bring the subject right up to peak condition before a sporting event, otherwise the food intake should be such that the subject can grow but not get Fat and overweight
When i see an overweight dog i cringe and think how can the owner allow that to happen But a lot think they are being kind When in fact they are lazy people, for they do not put themselves out to find out how to feed there dogs
Steve1

Jim, your male looks exactly like my female, build like a tank, let me guess his sholders and front is build like a weight lifter, you can see full muscle deffinition around the sholder blads, like frinking k9 version of van diesel lol.

I believe the key to a normal growing pup is to feed adult food starting at 8 weeks or an all stage food. I know of some breeders mine included weans there pups on adult food and not puppy food. IMO way too much protein in the puppy food for a fast growing pup. I have tried quite a few high quality very expensive kibble ( I believe the higher the quality the less you need to feed) but none of them agreed with my pup. I finally decided to try Purina Pro Plan (was a big no no in my book) but he does super on it so I am sticking with this for now, 2c twice a day. I may change his food when he is older but time will tell. Now this food is not as cheap as you would think, 44.00 for 33lbs and my female is on Solid Gold Wolf King 55.00 for 33lbs.

I agree a majority of the dogs I see are overweight but so are the owners, so that tells alot also.

I keep my dogs weight a bit under then normal, and most people say they are too skinny but what I find sad is all those people that make that comment have fat dogs.

Here is my 7mo old male and believe me ALOT of  people say he is too skinny but in reality he is at the perfect weight and condition for a 7mo old.

Denise

Denise
He is just the way a growing Pup should look like, Not fat, not underweight, a great pity more dog owners do not follow your example
Steve1

RLHar my female was the same way. Is she happy? Energetic? Dose she act like a starved dog? If no than she is the way all dogs should be. My current female is the same way but she has more muscle mass, actually she is all muscle no or minimal fat, my older female is the same way as well both dogs healthy and happy.


Let me tell you something my fathers dog (dachshund) was always overweight, I kept telling him he needs to loose weight he never listen to me, finally the dog jumped or something and hurt his back a little bit, I went with him to the vet, the vet wanted to do open back surgery, I said no way, and took the dog home with some shot that helped the muscle relax, after loosing over  10lb, the dog went from 28 to 15 all his pains are gone, he is extra energetic, and happy. My father is grateful till this day, and maintain the dogs weight. There is no better way to keep skeletal issues in check than maintaining healthy weight on a dog. We the handlers that keep are dogs lean are the ones that do the justice to the dogs not the one with fluffy thing on the end of the leash.

Snaiper, yep she is happy and full of herself and she has never snapped or grabbed at food like a dog who can't get enough.  I keep going by those guidelines with her but there are still times when I can feel boring holes in the back of my skull with their disapproving glares when they see me out with her.