working VS Show - Page 21

Well if people believe it is only 5% genetics in Dogs then why does that not apply to Race Horses , Racing Pigeons because it certainly does not. and if that is the said case in German Shepherd Dogs then you can buy or get Pups from the unwanted Dog homes and bring them up to the dizzy heights of champions through the training 95% for they will certainly contain good gent ices somewhere, When Izzy was being though-about before she was conceived a huge amount of thought went into the mating the Female was there but the Daddy was not, It was for me an interesting subject because i have never bred a dog in 60 years of keeping them, all of a sudden i am studying pedigrees, Conformation of Dogs, etc Plus knowing the Dogs Temperament Size Shape, colour  etc work ability there good and bad points etc,
Now i am not nothing to do with these Dogs except that i am having a Puppy from the Mother as was my choice of female, So although many dogs (Males) came up to the fore to mate with Izzy's Mother it was in the end after much insistence from me her Daddy was chosen and that was Como, and the breeder gave way to what i wanted and they were put together
Well he said to me some time afterwards as the two Pups which stayed in Belgium and local grew on, he could see from Puppies as they grew to weaning that the mating had great prospects, I watched then grow and i made my choice young  Izzy, and now she is almost 7 months old, the future is looking to be a bright one for her in the ScH world, and by the interest shown by others who have wanted to buy her there must be something they are seeing, And the breeder said to me that the mating was my fault and he was going to re mate the two dogs for another litter. Time will tell but i am sure something special will come from this mating and it was the breeding the genitices the quality of what has been produced along the line which has proven to be so good,  Plus the Dogs other attributes as pointed out above that drew me towards the best male to put to Izzys Mother
Blood tells and that is in all live stock to a bigger degree than 5%, However we all have our own ideas on things and when i get mobilized and can get back to the Training Clubs then i will ask some of the best over here on there views on 5% Genetics and 95% training i wonder what the Belgian team Captain and 4 times WUSV  World Sch  Champion would say about it that, it  will be interesting
At the Through Bred Horse Sales in Newmaket and the USA why has children of Northern Dancer made so much money. Plus his top Sons and Daughters why do there children make so much money it is the Blood that counts every time , I would not expect to go into the Town square and pick up Pigeons and then create a winning International Family from them because of the breeding i expect Genetics will play more than 5% in those Pigeons being born of Racing stock but gone feral but although i could try i would think i would have to live another life time of working on them to create even  something passable . But you get the Best Blood you can Genetics play a huge part in any thing more than 5 % for me,
Now as is been said on here, Hans is an Idiot, Not from me it did not come for i respect his views as i do a great many more folk on this Forum. I think everyone can contribute a little bit of Knowledge, even a new starter for the benifit of the more experinced people for in the Pigeon Sport i have learned much from such people, Not immediatly but as time goes by and a problem arises you rack your brains for an answer, and many time the answer has come for i say to myself, Young so and so mentioned that a long time ago i will give it a try and it has worked very well
Now i have been in the Pigeon sport for again 60 years but i will never stop learning, well i will when i leave this ea

Sorry although the above post is more like a sermon i did not quite finsh it and for some reason it seems that something is stopping me from doing so
but here it is
Now i have been in the pigeon sport for 60 years and will never stop learning, and i still have a huge amount to learn about Dogs in general, the one who knows it all is in for a sad time if they have nothing left to learn  about the breed
Steve1

Steve1, you missed my point. Re-read my post and Hans'...it IS very important...no one is saying it isn't. Just saying that it takes more than good genes to make a good dog, and even a dog w/great genes can be ruined by terrible training.

Of Course it takes more than good Genes, Training and the way the Dog is socialized in its environment and looked after make up a lot But not 95 % it does not, So what is being said you can take any run of the mill Shepherd and take it to the top in anything the trainer is interested in
Now that run of the mill Shepherd will have a bit of good Breeding in it Genes law of averages, and i would think more than 5%
So then it is all down to the handler
 Again we all know good Dogs can be ruined by bad handling,that is sure but 5% genes is all that is needed, No, i think not But one thing is certain if that is the truth and if it is the case then No one need spend any big sums of money on any Dog, For in most cases if you are looking for something exceptional then a high price is the normal certainly in an older Dog
All we need to do is to send the Pup to a top handler to train if we are not up to it ourselves and we will have a bargain Dog at the end of it
However i will ask over here the opinions of people each one of them with 30 to 40 years of experience, of training owning and handling German Shepherds, There thoughts will be interesting on the subject, But not possible until i can get Mobile again, It is an interesting subject and one to think about,
But if it applies to Dogs then it must apply in the same sense with Race Horses and Racing Pigeons for again with Horses you have the Trainer and the Jockey.
With Pigeons you have the Handler -Trainer  i guess much the same for feeding Racing pigeons and the Training (Work) is paramount to winning but together one is no good without the other But not unless you have the Basic Breeding High Class Genes, but it goes hand in hand between the two, Genes and Handling-Training but i really cannot see it 5 to 95%
Steve1

I have a different "take" on what Hans said.....Just my OPINION folks, nothing more -- I thought that Hans was saying when the dog is a young puppy the genetics accounts for 100%.   As you build on that 100% Genetic foundation to the "Finished" dog, the percentages become 5% Foundation genetics and 95% Training/Environment.

Maggie
where does it say 100% Genetics as a Puppy and then 5% when it is older, I have looked through again but do not see that
Now that is feasible, Because no matter how old or young the Dog is then Genetics play the big part, But you still need the Handling and good training to bring out the best in the Dog, that too is agreed, However it would be easier to say that to get the best finished article a combination of both, and of course you get that
In the Top WUSV dogs for instance, you see outstanding bloodlines and among the very best handlers from those countries How the handling bit goes for the show Dogs i do not know but they certainly can put the Dogs down in great condition, plus i guess there is more to the Showing side of handling that just that
Steve1

working VS Show
by Prager on 11 December 2009 - 23:12

Prager

Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:33 pm

What I mean is when you look at finished dog then 5% was genetic foundation, the rest was training. Now if you do not have that 5% you can not do much . Now when you are starting with a pup the genetics is all you have thus it is 100% . So you may say genetics are everything at that point.

Steve - see my Post above Ibrahim's...........

Yes, I see that now but i missed it, But it does go to show that the Base of a good Dog is in the Genes as it is with any living creature that is what i have been saying, For if it was not then for 60 years i have been wrong and results tell me otherwise
And of course a Dog can be ruined as as already been said by bad handling,
But i can tell you something else and you may or may not agree with, You can have a top Doghandler with a Young Dog and yet that dog will not work for him it has happened several times and then the Dog is passed onto a person with not so great a knowledge and expertise and both they and the Dog clicks and goes on to do great,
And that is the point of the matter the handler and the Dog must gell together even if the handler is not so experinced they work together and they go on to do well,
On the other hand a dog can love the handler but not respect and work for him or her
Steve1